Starting a Livery Yard- Maybe... Advice?

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SpoiledMare

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Hi All,

New on here, so Hi!

Just really want some advice, probably will be a long post, so hope you're all sitting comfortably!

I've been into horses my whole life, lucky enough to own one for past 3 years. I (as am sure majority of those on Livery) have had the usual moans about fields, menage etc etc... at my current yard, and I've always wanted to just hve a few acres for me and my horse (and a buddy to keep him company :))

My Oh has now decided that running a livery yard would be a fabulous idea as then I would have my own place, have a few horses and good facilities, and have people aroud to talk to an hack with etc.

I've found myself arguing against doing this, I do think it would be amazing, and in a perfect world I would love to run a yard, I know what makes a good yard and I would take pride in making sure I keep the standards high and make sure all needs are met.

Am I just being ungrateful? Should I look into it more? He's found land that would be 'perfect' 33 acres, he's decided we would have about 20 liveries, probably DIY, I'd do holiday cover or part livery if required, we'd build new stables and a menage with good surface, he's really put a lot of thought into it and done some maths and it does seem like it'd be viable, so why am I so apprehensive?

I just hear so much about how difficult a yard is to run, and from a livery's perspective I know that bitching happens, and people dont get on, everyone has a different opinion on how it should be run, and I just dont know if I could handle the prospect of managing this kind of environment.

So is it all doom and gloom? or is it possible to run a happy yard?

Advice please, I fell liek a right grump...
 
Hi there! We've had liveries for about ten years, it's definitely not as easy as some people think so you're right to be cautious, but certainly worth looking at. As I'm sure you're aware there are a lot of costs involved to set up and then ongoing costs to assign, such as reseeding paddocks, fertalising, spraying, business rates, water, electric lots of things people don't always think of. To build stables for 20 horses and a decent size menage you're looking at outlaying about £50k absolute minimum, plus you'll need plenty of storage, for hay, tack, feed etc, especially for DIY, somewhere to tie up, lots of parking etc etc. You really need to think about location too, are you near a town or main road, are there lots of other yards in the area and if so will you be providing something they aren't, as there are only so many horses to go round? I think DIY is a great option for people converting buildings at relatively low cost or with spare stables but the revenue generated doesn't leave huge profits so it will take you a long time to recoup outlays if this a concern. Would you consider part or full livery, as if you've got time to do this it generates much larger revenue for the same amount of horses? At one stage we had 17 liveries but I found it was a lot to run properly and do everything else, as we have several of our own horses too, and you will find even a big menage will get busy at times with these numbers, we have now cut down to 12 liveries in total and are only taking 3 DIYs at a time, nothing at all against DIYs but with 58 acres in total and about 30 horses it works better for us to concentrate more on part and full livery numbers. Regarding running the yard you've got to be a strong, fair person in my opinion, you can't please all of the people all of the time and need to make sensible decisions and stick to them, you can't have favourites and need the strength of character to deal with problems. As long as you're always honest when people look round and make it clear your policies re turnout, what grazing is available and any rules you have people can then make their own informed decision as to whether the yard suits their requirements or not. You also need to deal with any trouble makers head on, and not shirk from this, we've been very lucky to only have to ask one person to leave in 10 years, but one bad apple can quickly spoil an apple cart if any do come your way!! :eek: We do very much enjoy it though, we've met some lovely people and are lucky enough to have a great bunch at the yard - if I won the lottery tomorrow I'd still keep our current liveries, as you said it's nice to have other horsey people around to ride with and chat too :)
 
as above^^^ very good advice!!


defiantly the bit - dont favour one over another! especially putting your own horse onto fab grazing and leavign liveries on crap (one previous yard did this to mine)!

i love the yard im at now... its friendly/fair/fab owners etc - it really is nice :) the atmosphere is lovely too as everyone comes down at different times - theres (i think!) 10 liveries which is a brilliant number (upto 20 is reasonable imo),


on thing i will say though where theres no brew room, theres less places to have a gossip! brew rooms are for gaterhing and imo ive found it previous to develop clicks!! (im refering to a yard i was on around 4/5 years ago) it was bitch central

just something to consider :) good luck! very jelous - ive always wanted to run my own yard :)
 
Talk to a lot of other people, Yard owners and liveries about what they want, what they expect, what rules they have etc. Loads of threads on those subjects here of course. Then look at what facilities you have and have a long hard think about how you want to run your yard.

You need this firmly in mind first, it is quite difficult to go changing the boundaries once you have set them. Make everything crystal clear to prospective clients, yard times if you are going to set them, what paddocks and facilities are for use, when etc, and oh, if you want your horses in a particular paddock or stables etc, just tell them that on their tour - "these paddocks/stables are not available to liveries" you can give them reasons if it makes you feel better (stallions, fatties, poor doers, broodmares etc those are the reasons I keep paddocks for my own use) then they know it is non-negotiable.

Another thing, parking, get a good gravelled area set up.

Always a good idea to have a few individual paddocks for troublemakers/restricted turnout, and now track systems are becoming quite popular and do work well if done properly - something else to consider, good for fatties especially. You also have to take the type of land into consideration, sandy/decent draining soil is going to hold more horses through a wet winter (OK year then) than clay or low lying ground. Consider creating some all weather turnout pens.

Price your services fairly too, cover your costs (and it will cost much more than you anticipate) otherwise it simply isn't worth doing.

Have fun.
 
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Look with wide open eyes at the land and facilities before you decide what to offer.

Be aware of any limitations of the land - ours is wet clay, and although it looked fab when we first started, having had sheep on for years, and even though it coped well with ours, we never imagined that 16 acres would suffer with six horses on, but it did!

Think of access to fields and the yard - where will get icy, where will people slip etc - things you don't even think about when you are there on your own.. Are you very isolated - will you end up doing several DIYs in snowy weather when they decide half a mile is too far to walk..

Weigh up competition - are there several yards around advertising boxes, is there a real demand, or will you end up with empty boxes?

Going off threads on here and local experiences, I would section the land into different sections and put up small individual yards to let out as wholes, rather than a big yard.

Factor in insurance - read the health and safety and insurance threads on here.

Factor in a wage for yourself when you do livery costs.
 
I can't see how the maths add up to be honest. Let's say you pay 60k for the land (very optimistic) and another 50k for the stables (wildly optimistic), and let's forget about fencing and getting water/electricity to the property, how many years will it take you to make 110k back from DIY liveries?
 
My advice..........don't do it.

Sorry, that's not helpful is it. You have had lots of good advice above.
I have been there and done it. You really can't win for losing. It doesn't matter how well you run it, I found it was the bitching, backstabbing and politics amongst the liveries that was exhausting. I would never entertain the idea again.
Good luck though, if you go ahead I hope you enjoy and wish you every success.
 
Realistically if you are paying for the land (and have a loan for it) and / or paying for a brand new yard to be built then it is very very unlikely that DIY liveries will make you enough profit to pay you a wage. Plus they can be (tho not always!) the most hassle - if they dont look after their horses properly then under the newish animal welfare legislation you can be liable for doing so........
 
Thank guys, I really appreciate you all taking the time to give me advice!

I think you have all covered my perspective, both good sides and down sides, I'm all too aware how hard it can be creating an atmosphere where everyone is happy to be there, the last thing I want is to have a yard where people feel like others are favoured etc. Am I right in thinking (as this is how I would like it) that a set of rules which are clear to all, and reasonable, must be adhered to at all times, to create a structure so everybody knows where they stand would go some way to ensuring a content yard?

With regards to costs etc, he has created a budget, we are viewing this more as a long term plan, so start up costs will obviously be high, but I feel that money put in at this stage woud be beneficial in the long run, we currently have budgeted around the £60,000 mark for the initial set up of stables and menage, hardcoring a carpark and creating a concrete yard area, this is just an estimate for now, so obvs prices will probably differ in reality. Hoping at some point in the future to get planning permission for a house on site (in mean time would live in a house backing onto the land - convenient!) plus I'd be keeping my horse(s) on site, so whilst we wouldnt be totally reliant on the yard paying for itself straightaway (as we would view the costs as a mortgage+livery costs for my horse) we would expect the livery income to cover majority of costs. Does this make sense? would it be successful in reality or is it just 'a nice idea?' to be honest I feel a bit like I'd just be using other people to subsidise what I want really, but if what I want is what other people would like to then surely that's a good thing? as I'd be keen to ensure it's maintained well - Obviously wouldnt be treating the yard like it was all mine and doing other people a 'favour' by letting them be there (first yard I was at felt a lot like this and it was horrible)

Regarding taking on part/full liveries, I know DIYers tend to cause more trouble (not in a bad way, I currently am one!- but you know what I mean) and part/Full does create more income, but I dont have any official equine qualifications, just years of experience, would people be less inclined to trust me with their horses with my lack of official endorsements? This is the main reason why I wasnt really considering this option in the first place.

Competition wise there are a few farms in the area, but it's mostly farmers renting out spare fields, I think a lot of people would be interested in a purpose built equestrian facility, with a YO who is around and has the horses best interest are a priority. Bit of a sore point for me to be honest, currently at a farm where the crops come first, the menage is a mess with no jumps or poles etc and the fields are ruined. Farmer couldnt really care less and wont give us the time of day to listen to the problems and do something about it.

Hope all of this makes sense? There's a lot still needs looking into, but until I've really thought about it and got some opinions I dont want to get too attached to the idea if you know what I mean?
 
I don't know anyone who does any more than scrape a living from having a livery yard-everyone who does has a full income from something else (not usually equine related) in addition,which usually funds the livery yard. If there is any profit at all,it is so negligible! In any other business,you'd be deemed mad to put in the massive capital outlay,long,long hours & hard work and put up with the complications of the human kind that will arise from having lots of horsey women (usually women!)in one place(let alone the equines) for such tiny return. There is always something that needs buying/fixing/mending/replacing/sorting and you will probably never have had less time to spend with & ride your own horse as when you start up (&manage) a yard! Sorry-know it's a bit doom & gloom but it's the reality(in the experience of several people I know) If you do do it,good luck & hope it goes well! :)
 
I couldn't do it, being a YO seems to be a lot of stress for not much benefit from what I gather from those that do it! And there's no way I'd have 20 horses on 33 acres, closer to 10! The endless threads about poached, ruined fields seem to be the result of too many horses in too small fields.
 
Others have given lots of good advice. I will reiterrate the running of a livery yard is a very marginal enterprise. you will be lucky to cover costs especially if you are raising finance and paying loans on the capital outlay.

Be clear about what you will provide - stable, hay, bedding.

You may find that by supplying some things you can control the standards a little.
Consider how you will feel if even though you have high standards, and run a professional yard, some clients are skimping on bed, feed and hay - and the horses do not look good.

Whether you provide in the cost of DIY Livery or offer to supply - factor in the cost of buying in bulk.eg some suppliers will not deliver less that 8 pallets of shavings - cost about £2k - similarly hay - bulk buying reduces costs but unlikely to get credit terms in this business.

Make sure you understand all of the costs - initial sep up and on going.

Initial: apart from the premises what equipment will you need - wash down areas, rug drying areas. then you need rug racks, hooks -etc sounds insignificant but at £3-5 per time for hooks then 20 of them mount up!
locks, security equippment, cameras, lights.

Then insurances - you will also need to perform risk assessments.

Is water metered? can be really expensive. will need some regulator to avoid running taps etc.

Website creation /advertising
Accountancy/ book keeping software/ time spent invoicing chasing payment etc.

will you employ staff - the implications of this are ever more complex!

Eyes wide open - there is a lot involved in running this sort of business quite apart from the horses.

In my experience full livery clients rarely understand/appreciate the actual cost of keeping a horse and the DIY client though more cognizant of the cost, is often - not always - much more cost concious of the cost and is doing it on a shoe string.

Lots to think about but with A diy yard I suspect the pay back period could be significant
 
other costs

Business rates - you will be charged this on all facilities whether or not you are using them - which is the reason behind a lot of unhappy livery clients on overcrowded yards - there are too many stables for too little land esp in this weather but the YO will be charged rates on all of them, so sort of has to fill them to make ends meet!

Muck removal if you dont have lots of spare land and equipment to spread it safely.
 
^^business rates can be crippling for equestrian businesses-you get charged more,the more facilities you have (eg manège etc) and don't know how handy your OH is (or you!) but the cost of labour to fit/fix/replace things (eg fencing,gates,lighting,drainage, electrics,stable walls etc etc) and perform land maintenance (grass seed and fertiliser are so expensive!) will be an ongoing, significant expense.
 
Catcus said:
The endless threads about poached, ruined fields seem to be the result of too many horses in too small fields.
Click to expand...

Not always the case if managed and rested and cared for correctly you can do it, I have 9 acres and 11 animals on it fields are decided into 4 and front paddock for ponies, 2 back ones at any time are rested.

We have way to much grass in the summer, even now 7 are on half the back and the fields ( pictures in another thread) are only muddy in the entrance area.

AND we can and have get hay off one side while horses on the others. 280 bales was a good year.
The difference with us is it drains well, horses are not out full time, 7am - 3pm. Field maintenance is right on form
 
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Leviathan said:
Not always the case if managed and rested and cared for correctly you can do it, I have 9 acres and 11 animals on it fields are decided into 4 and front paddock for ponies, 2 back ones at any time are rested.

We have way to much grass in the summer, even now 7 are on half the back and the fields ( pictures in another thread) are only muddy in the entrance area.

AND we can and have get hay off one side while horses on the others. 280 bales was a good year.
The difference with us is it drains well, horses are not out full time, 7am - 3pm. Field maintenance is right on form
Click to expand...

I think it also depends on where you are. In Yorkshire I had fabulous fields, 7 acres was fine for 4 horses, in Shrops it was worse and I needed 10 acres, in France a staggering 24 acres and we're struggling with the 4. The soil is clay beyong belief (and I have stabled in Staffs and Shrops, so I thought I knew about clay soil). If we had the UK rainfall here we would never be able to turn out.
 
I think ut could be great.
If you plan well and are organised.

I would be better though if you thought smaller.

Less people, less you moan, you can be fussy who moves in.
more people, moaning, more problems.
:-)
 
I have run a small livery yard for several years and am afraid I am in the 'doom and gloom' category.

I have found that even with owning the facilities, it is hard to make a profit - it only takes one 'client' to break fencing or trash a paddock to have your profits for that month wiped out.

Whatever rules you make, you will always come up against clients that don't think they apply to them, and it is rare to find a client that respects your property as you do.

Then you have the complication of the mix of horses - some owners want individual turn out, some don't, then you have mares coming into season so need to keep them separate from the geldings, or horses that don't get on so are constantly having to juggle the herds to prevent any accidents.....the list goes on!

As a YO you need to mentally tough as often have to make decisions that clients don't like, especially when weather is concerned. I would not advise making 'friends' with your clients either as you never know when you may be in a situation where you have to ask them to leave!

I have recently decided to downsize and just keep a couple of trustworthy long term clients who have nice horses, and have returned to p/t time work and have never been happier!
 
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