Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
I agree with this completely - when I was on a lovely yard down south paying top wack the great couple that ran it didn't come close to making minimum wage.
Starting a livery yard
- Thread starter Newbie84
- Start date
I agree with this completely - when I was on a lovely yard down south paying top wack the great couple that ran it didn't come close to making minimum wage.
zigzag
Well-Known Member
By me full livery is £80 a week, only thing it doesn't include is exercising. Choice of straw or shavings, adlib hay or haylage, no indoor school but normal size floodlit outdoor and hacking straight on to common. Turnout all year round. Choice of indoor and outdoor stables. ( There is a waiting list)
Wagtail
Horse servant
I agree. Our top spec main block of four stables, tack room and feed room cost £250 k. The arena was £60 k. We then put up a further 4 wooden stables, workshop, etc for £18 k. The post and rail fencing was £6 k.
zigzag
Well-Known Member
Bloody hell you can buy a house for that lol
Newbie84
Active Member
No need to say sorry- you're presuming that because we are just farmers we will be digging it out with our digger and using crap sand. The school is being built by equestrian builders using correct surfacing. Liveries can have the poshest bedding they want, they'll just have to pay for it- as people in previous comments have said, people don't realise the full cost of keeping a horse- if they're only £100 for full livery they will be paying for their posh bedding, if they don't want to they can have straw, or find somewhere else in the area.
Newbie84
Active Member
My business wouldn't be viable if I spent £250k on a block of 4 stables plus tack room etc. No wonder people don't make money....
LynH
Well-Known Member
I think you would be better off budgeting for the top end products throughout. People want a fixed price for part or full livery, they do not want to be guessing what their bill will be at the end of the month with added extras. I was on livery before buying my own place and from personal experience I can guarantee that bust business people would prefer to pay a little extra and know their bill will be the same every month rather than having to manage all the little details.
If you want work out a deluxe livery and a standard livery so people can choose but you'll find the people willing to pay for the best service will prefer a fixed all inclusive cost.
Newbie84
Active Member
We have never sold our straw and we used to have syledge for cattle which we no longer have so that will be replaced with hay.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Will you be making your own hay and straw? What is included in your costs? You have 3 staff for a start.
Newbie84
Active Member
I agree with you, I would just worry that'd I'd price people out by putting prices up to include things like shavings. Everything else like feed, holding for vets etc would be included in the price it would just be the bedding. Where we're based it isn't overly rich so we don't have that clientele.
Newbie84
Active Member
Yes we do our own hay and straw. Costs include 3 staff, business rates, electricity, haylage (I just put this in to cover hidden costs), feed, insurance, accountants, miscellaneous fee = comes to just under £60k per annum. I have given myself a measly salary initially....
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
Well I wish you the very best of luck. I have over 50 horses living on my farm so I'm very well versed on the costs to keep them and although the annual turnover looks terrific on paper, once the outgoings are factored in, not so much. I do hope it works out for you and I guess you'll never know whether it will or not until you do it. I'd still sit down and work out your figures again though as I still think they are somewhat of a pipe dream. Sorry.
FlyingCircus
Well-Known Member
What you can get away with charging will depend on the area you're in.
If the area you're in aren't overly rich, are you sure there's a call for full livery? I don't like to make a sweeping generalisation and stereotype, but generally the rich are busy and the busy want full livery. In other places that are not so well-off, there's not THAT much call for full livery.
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
Okay, so you have 16 liveries and this is your running costs; say they are paying £100 per week which is £1,600 pw, which is £6,400 pm. Your annual income from those liveries is £76,800. This leaves you with £16,800 after you've taken out your costs as stated above at £60,000. Over 3 years the amount you'll be left with is £16,800 x 3 = £50,400. Can you honestly build the sort of livery yard you want for £50k?
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
anyone considered giving the tax man his share... ???
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
It sounds like a wonderful dream.
A dream alot of us wish would come true.
But it doent sound right.
Saying it will be an out door yard, with a 20x50 arena with straw and hay/haylege other bedding etc it doent sound like it will be a "top end" yard.
Sorry
Yes a nice yard, but one probably more suited to diy/assisted or part, maybe full but as i said not the "top end" market.
What about the surface for the arena, that is very expensive, so a big chunck of your budget.
Im no acountant but your sums dont sound right.
You have to pay wages, even to yourself.
Making the straw, hay etc will still cost.
Whether thats just man hours from your other buisiness, as someone said thats just stealling from one to give to the other.
Good luck, I hope it goes well.
But please look in to it properly and factor all costs.
A dream alot of us wish would come true.
But it doent sound right.
Saying it will be an out door yard, with a 20x50 arena with straw and hay/haylege other bedding etc it doent sound like it will be a "top end" yard.
Sorry
Yes a nice yard, but one probably more suited to diy/assisted or part, maybe full but as i said not the "top end" market.
What about the surface for the arena, that is very expensive, so a big chunck of your budget.
Im no acountant but your sums dont sound right.
You have to pay wages, even to yourself.
Making the straw, hay etc will still cost.
Whether thats just man hours from your other buisiness, as someone said thats just stealling from one to give to the other.
Good luck, I hope it goes well.
But please look in to it properly and factor all costs.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
How much interest have you had from potential clients for your yard? Have you had a lot of inquiries or a waiting list?
When I have paid top price for livery (e.g. 130p/w for schooling livery) I expected absolutely everything included, e.g. bedding of my choice, haylage, hard feed, indoor school and schooling by really good rider.
The 'take it or leave it' approach to the service industry is all well enough...until customers leave it!
Wagtail
Horse servant
If you are making your own hay and straw, then you need to factor in the loss of income from not being able to sell that hay and straw to other animal keepers, or the income from other farm animals that could have been kept on the land, or crops grown on that land. You will have to pay business rates on every stable and up to £1.50 per square metre on your arena. Horses also use a lot of water. Horse owners will be using electricity such as the arena lights, tack room heaters etc. Fields need to be sprayed for weeds (or cleared manually), fertilized and cleared of muck. Fencing is expensive and needs frequent repairs. It is highly unlikely you will fill all 16 spaces in the first year, or be running at full mast for any significant period. You will still have to pay wages even if liveries leave. The list of hidden costs is endless.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
You should also factor in a living wage for yourself, because a lot of people end up working for nothing.
X
xspiralx
Guest
A two tier system works well. Lots of yards I know will have a cheaper rate for part/full which might include less bedding etc, and then a deluxe rate. Anyone who doesn't want straw etc will pay the higher rate, but better that than say they will have to buy the bedding to spec - that's the kind of hassle people on full livery don't want.
andij253
Member
Agreed, you will be subject to VAT on the income (if you are turning over £100K pa) and any profits will be subject to tax. Also if you are employing people you will need to cover their tax and employers NI (and now a pension!).
Health and safety, holiday cover, sickness cover etc.
I think you will be hard pushed to run a yard of this size with 1.5 people.
We have looked several times at buying somewhere and running a business but the costs have always outweighed the income potential.
Good luck though.
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
OP, you have confused me with your replies -you have been given some great advice from very experienced yard owners, but seem to be able to counter it all, as you have it all sussed anyway. Not sure what the point of asking for advice is, if you don't really want it ? 
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
See the get stuffed if you don't like it attitude would put me right off immediately. I like to be treated like a customer not an inconvenience! I have had my horse on various livery packages and DIY over the years and I want one price not to pay loads of complicated extras especially if I was already paying the top end of the spectrum. As someone pointed out earlier hardly anyone except those on a budget wants their horse bedded on straw these days. I see someone mentioned standard or deluxe packages - that would be a better way of scaling things.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
Your right, when you dissect the cost of running a yard against the income, repairs improvements there is very little profit if any.
I work full time on the yard 7 days a week the yard is always paying out, but then I am guilty of improvements and extra things I buy to make the yard run better/ appeal to liveries.
ILuvCowparsely
Well-Known Member
Liveries come and go, you can have weeks or months with empty boxes no income as well.
Fanatical
Well-Known Member
My two-penneth is as follows...
MOST livery yards don't make money and are lucky to break even. It is a bonus if you already own the property/ land and have no mortgage/ rent. I am hoping to open up my own yard in the not too distant future. It will be full livery at a competitive but realistic price for the area and only a small yard. I have done my sums and hope that they are correct and that the business will cover the cost of the maintenance of the property and if I am lucky, cover the cost of my own horses.
Unless you have MASSES of land and can hire out numerous facilities (XC schooling/ gallops/ farm ride/ SJ arenas etc) to pony clubs, riding clubs etc, hold competitions/ camps then in my experience, there is not a lot of money to be made.
Don't forget that you have to take into account the costs involved that have to be deducted from the price you are charging each livery such as...
Hay/ haylage
Water
Electricity
Bedding
Basic Feed
Tax
Insurance
Business Rates
Muckheap Removal
Field maintenance (rolling/ topping/ harrowing/ spraying etc)
Maintenance of stables/ fencing
Replacing old/ worn facilities
Good Luck with your venture. It is very exciting, but don't expect to get rich!
MOST livery yards don't make money and are lucky to break even. It is a bonus if you already own the property/ land and have no mortgage/ rent. I am hoping to open up my own yard in the not too distant future. It will be full livery at a competitive but realistic price for the area and only a small yard. I have done my sums and hope that they are correct and that the business will cover the cost of the maintenance of the property and if I am lucky, cover the cost of my own horses.
Unless you have MASSES of land and can hire out numerous facilities (XC schooling/ gallops/ farm ride/ SJ arenas etc) to pony clubs, riding clubs etc, hold competitions/ camps then in my experience, there is not a lot of money to be made.
Don't forget that you have to take into account the costs involved that have to be deducted from the price you are charging each livery such as...
Hay/ haylage
Water
Electricity
Bedding
Basic Feed
Tax
Insurance
Business Rates
Muckheap Removal
Field maintenance (rolling/ topping/ harrowing/ spraying etc)
Maintenance of stables/ fencing
Replacing old/ worn facilities
Good Luck with your venture. It is very exciting, but don't expect to get rich!
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catwithclaws
Well-Known Member
Completely agree with Fanatical - even yards offering full livery are lucky to break even.
I'm in the south of England, and the yard I work on currently has 29 horses in - 6 are the yard managers, 7 horses on assisted livery at £280 pcm (assisted is no longer offered but current people on it are allowed to stay) 6 on full livery at £550 pcm, and 10 horses on part livery at £450 pcm.
So income from livery works out at £9760 per month. We have an indoor american barn with the stables in, fully matted with automatic drinkers, 2 outdoor floodlit arenas, 1 indoor floodlit arena, indoor wash down and a horse walker. Livery includes everything, clients can have either hay or haylage (hay can be soaked, sprayed or dry) a choice of bedding, either straw, shavings, or laysoft - and a choice of a huge variety of feeds (last time I checked, we offer 6 different types of chaff!)
Yard manager works every hour god sends, she is on the yard from 6am until 8.30 at night, 7 days a week, with 4 part time members of staff. By the time she has paid all her rates, maintenance, insurance, our wages, and her feed/hay/bedding bill, she is literally not even making enough to cover her own horses!
Its a really really difficult business to make money in, I have no idea about working out your sums so can't offer advice on that, but hope I've shown that even at the top end of the market, with a large yard at full capacity, its still really really hard to make money!
I'm in the south of England, and the yard I work on currently has 29 horses in - 6 are the yard managers, 7 horses on assisted livery at £280 pcm (assisted is no longer offered but current people on it are allowed to stay) 6 on full livery at £550 pcm, and 10 horses on part livery at £450 pcm.
So income from livery works out at £9760 per month. We have an indoor american barn with the stables in, fully matted with automatic drinkers, 2 outdoor floodlit arenas, 1 indoor floodlit arena, indoor wash down and a horse walker. Livery includes everything, clients can have either hay or haylage (hay can be soaked, sprayed or dry) a choice of bedding, either straw, shavings, or laysoft - and a choice of a huge variety of feeds (last time I checked, we offer 6 different types of chaff!)
Yard manager works every hour god sends, she is on the yard from 6am until 8.30 at night, 7 days a week, with 4 part time members of staff. By the time she has paid all her rates, maintenance, insurance, our wages, and her feed/hay/bedding bill, she is literally not even making enough to cover her own horses!
Its a really really difficult business to make money in, I have no idea about working out your sums so can't offer advice on that, but hope I've shown that even at the top end of the market, with a large yard at full capacity, its still really really hard to make money!
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Newbie84
Active Member
Thanks for all your responses, I'm sorry If i have appeared to have not taken in all the replies and acted as though I have got it 'all sussed out'. When you have a dream it's hard to hear people raining on your parade so to speak. I understand why people are doing it, but I'm sure you can appreciate it is still hard to hear.
We will be going through the figures with are accountant/land agent and various others to see how the figures stack up.
Thanks again
We will be going through the figures with are accountant/land agent and various others to see how the figures stack up.
Thanks again
martlin
Well-Known Member
OP, don't write your dream off, tbh, the only objectionable part of your plan is repaying the facilities within 3 years 
I mean, come on, not many start up businesses manage to even get a decent profit in the first 3 years, never mind repay the capital investments.
I am a YO, and I assure you, the profit margins are tight and it only makes sense to keep going as the livery improves the farm's cash flow and it doesn't LOSE money. That and the fact that I might have to go out and get a real job otherwise, lol.
I mean, come on, not many start up businesses manage to even get a decent profit in the first 3 years, never mind repay the capital investments.I am a YO, and I assure you, the profit margins are tight and it only makes sense to keep going as the livery improves the farm's cash flow and it doesn't LOSE money. That and the fact that I might have to go out and get a real job otherwise, lol.
Copperpot
Well-Known Member
When my horse was on full 7 day livery it was £185 a week. He got daily turnout, haylage, feed and exercised 5 times a week either hacking, schooling or jumping. Clipping was included too and he was always spotless, mane and tail pulled etc. They also cleaned my tack.