Starting a livery yard?

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skewbaldmillie

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We have just bought a block of six stables with plenty of land and a new arena and are planning on setting up a livery. I know most people advice would be don't but as we do not have to pay rent for the yard and we will be having to pay for water and electricity anyway as have our two going there I see no reason not to. We have plenty of time for care if horses and maintenance of fencing, stables etc. I have already decided to go for full or part only as I feel that fit can lead to bitchiness and issues when owners don't show up. Any constructive advice?
 
I haven't done this myself, so I don't know much that would be very constructive, but I'd say ensure you have the correct insurance.
I'd also say though you are closing yourself off to a very select market, as there aren't as many people looking for Part/Full livery compared to DIY. Well in my area that's the case!
You only have 4 spare stables don't you, if you're keeping your own 2 there. I'd be inclined to advertise the stables for 1 or 2 people with multiple horses :)
 
If I'm honest, I wouldn't be inclined to pay for full livery on such a small yard with one arena. As Deltic Blue has said, you are closing yourself off to a select market.

You will need to ensure you have correct insurance and be up front about what type of horses you would like as well as people. Do you want the happy hacker or someone who competes.

You also need to bear in mind other peoples working patterns and that you will have strange people on your yard at any time. Farriers, chiro, vets etc. Where is there equipment going to go? is there room for their bedding and straw? What if they have a trailer?

We were going to do this but then weighing everything up, we decided against it. It wasn't worth it in the end. The stress of having people knock on the door "My ponies fence is broke" or knocking in the evening when we had been at work to pay livery.... Its the little things you have to think about.
 
Id say be very clear in your own mind what sort of routine you wish to keep, feed/forage/bedding you are willing to offer and cans/cants for turnout, use of school etc.
As a livery I like to know the ground rules and what is mandatory and what is flexible - no hidden surprises. Then I can judge in advance if it's suitable for what I need.

The other thing to consider, which I have seen time and time again is that it is so difficult to find really good reliable staff. You are bound to need the odd day off/holiday etc so who will you get to cover? I've often chosen yards based in confidence levels of the YM - and experienced a good trustworthy YM have to employ people I'm not happy to leave my horse with when they go away, through lack of any other options!
 
If you are going to offer livery or rent out the stables then you will end up paying commercial rates which will be an added expense.
You also need to check that you have planning permission for a commercial use and also that it has had planning permission for equestrian use.
 
Louby-Jay said:
If I'm honest, I wouldn't be inclined to pay for full livery on such a small yard with one arena. As Deltic Blue has said, you are closing yourself off to a select market.
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Why? I have run such a yard for eleven years. I used to have eight horses here with two of my own. Now I have reduced it to just four with one of my own due to personal circumstances and not to lack of potential clients. I just didn't replace those who left over the past 3 years. I never have a space for more than a couple of weeks if someone leaves. I have had a waiting list of nine in the past. I only have one arena, but with so few liveries, no one has to share. I think it is an excellent idea of the OP. I agree that I do not think DIY clients are a good idea on such a small yard. I have never taken any on for the problems the OP has cited. I think if I had a very large yard, I would though.
 
OWLIE185 said:
If you are going to offer livery or rent out the stables then you will end up paying commercial rates which will be an added expense.
You also need to check that you have planning permission for a commercial use and also that it has had planning permission for equestrian use.
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If you are offering services (which you are planning to in this case in the form of full or part livery) then this would be relevant however, if you are only offering DIY then this does not come into play unless you have ten or more horses. However, DIY or full, you will still need to pay business rates as you offer a arena. I think the last time I checked this was £200 per year in my area.
 
Wagtail said:
Why? I have run such a yard for eleven years. I used to have eight horses here with two of my own. Now I have reduced it to just four with one of my own due to personal circumstances and not to lack of potential clients. I just didn't replace those who left over the past 3 years. I never have a space for more than a couple of weeks if someone leaves. I have had a waiting list of nine in the past. I only have one arena, but with so few liveries, no one has to share. I think it is an excellent idea of the OP. I agree that I do not think DIY clients are a good idea on such a small yard. I have never taken any on for the problems the OP has cited. I think if I had a very large yard, I would though.
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From experience in my area, people who want full livery also want the facilities of competitions, cross country etc. They don't want to pay for full livery on a smaller yard with nothing other than an arena.

This is just in my area though. It may be different in others.
 
We have two large separate car parks( one for trailers and one for everyday cars) as well as a large tack room with plenty of space for lots of tack and a separate feed room as well as an extra hay and straw barn. I didnt make it clear that there are six stables and then two for my own. Assuming the council allow it as a commercial use as currently has a few liveried although I will check and I don't mind paying commercial fees too much. The bridleways are direct off of the yard and go all the way across Exmoor with no road crossing over anything other than single track lanes. There is also planning permission for a round pen and horse walker so that could be something we might invest in. Arena is floodlit so hopefully that should attract a few more low level competitive people as I don't think many happy hackers want to pay full livery.
 
Louby-Jay said:
From experience in my area, people who want full livery also want the facilities of competitions, cross country etc. They don't want to pay for full livery on a smaller yard with nothing other than an arena.

This is just in my area though. It may be different in others.
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From my experience that is not the case, maybe it's an area thing? All I want is a good surface, floodlights access to hacking and a good individual looking after my horse, someone who does the horse all the time and notices the smaller details.
I think a 6-8 box yard is a lovely size! Though rare to find as difficult to make the books balance
 
ihatework said:
From my experience that is not the case, maybe it's an area thing? All I want is a good surface, floodlights access to hacking and a good individual looking after my horse, someone who does the horse all the time and notices the smaller details.
I think a 6-8 box yard is a lovely size! Though rare to find as difficult to make the books balance
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Yep - that's all I need from full livery. Soemtimes people need full livery just due to time constraints of work/family.
 
ihatework said:
From my experience that is not the case, maybe it's an area thing? All I want is a good surface, floodlights access to hacking and a good individual looking after my horse, someone who does the horse all the time and notices the smaller details.
I think a 6-8 box yard is a lovely size! Though rare to find as difficult to make the books balance
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Agreed, this description is the perfect yard. Loads of people (like me) need full livery, floodlights and a school because of working full time. Not bothered about competing and fancy facilities - more a case of having enough hours in the day!
 
We've been forced to be on livery yards for years so are hoping to make everything clear and easy as possible for both us and the liveries as we know how it can feel to be on yards when payment dates, turnout schedules and school use etc are unclear
 
Sorry if this has already been covered but get a contract drawn up. And make it clear to potential liveries EXACTLY was is covered in the rent and what extras are on top. Also who is responsible for weekend turnout/bring ins, how often the ménage will be harrowed, if turnout is 24/7, a list of extra costs, policy wearing hard hats whilst riding, etc, etc. Just some of the things as a livery I've stumbled over with the passing of the years.
 
ihatework said:
From my experience that is not the case, maybe it's an area thing? All I want is a good surface, floodlights access to hacking and a good individual looking after my horse, someone who does the horse all the time and notices the smaller details.
I think a 6-8 box yard is a lovely size! Though rare to find as difficult to make the books balance
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Hi, sorry to hijack this comment but I wonder if you're right about smaller yards struggling to make the books balance. I have always wanted to have my own yard but in order to get the necessary start-up finances in place it really would have to be commercial business i.e. makes a small profit, is viable and not solely propped up by my own income. I would love to keep things on the small scale but with the overheads it would mean that of a yard of six, (two stables for my own horses and four DIY-ers) each DIY livery would have to be paying £65 per week to breakeven.

Even with a 20m round-pen, 20x40m sand-school, grazing and american barn style stabling, I cannot imagine people wanting to pay over the odds prices when compared to Jo-Bloggs basic DIY down the road. What do you think? Would you pay a premium price for small, professional and peaceful yard?
 
I think it's a balancing act. I'm on a similar yard but I pay £70 per week in winter full and £50 in summer when they are living out. Care is spot on but no I wouldn't pay the £90 I used to for the yard with two arenas competitions and transport to shows.
I have kids so for me I need the help for that reason and to keep the horses routine if I'm stuck late etc...
 
Cornwall_569 said:
Hi, sorry to hijack this comment but I wonder if you're right about smaller yards struggling to make the books balance. I have always wanted to have my own yard but in order to get the necessary start-up finances in place it really would have to be commercial business i.e. makes a small profit, is viable and not solely propped up by my own income. I would love to keep things on the small scale but with the overheads it would mean that of a yard of six, (two stables for my own horses and four DIY-ers) each DIY livery would have to be paying £65 per week to breakeven.

Even with a 20m round-pen, 20x40m sand-school, grazing and american barn style stabling, I cannot imagine people wanting to pay over the odds prices when compared to Jo-Bloggs basic DIY down the road. What do you think? Would you pay a premium price for small, professional and peaceful yard?
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I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I would pay a premium for the right yard. Would I pay £65pw for pure DIY - possibly not if there were reasonable alternative yards in the area. Possibly yes if there weren't.

But I can tell you now that the vast majority of DIY people would not pay £65pw, unless it maybe included bedding/forage.

If you had 4 boxes then by far the best way to go would be to let them out as a unit to a single individual. Round my way people do pay a premium for a private/semi private set up
 
There's a yard in my area which only does part livery (ie everything except riding) and the owner provides hard feed. They have approx 15 stables, a big arena, a walker and all year round turnout. They do a 5 day or 7 day care package and charge upwards of £100-120/week. The hacking is amazing, if you like wide open spaces and lots of bridlepaths (!). There is a waiting list for the yard.

I have just seen an advert for another yard which is about to open, also offering only full or part livery (ie horses are exercised for you as well), just up the road, so there is obviously a market for it.

In terms of "things to think about" the part livery yard requires sight of the horse's insurance certificate, and also sight of the flu vacc record. (ie not just verbal assurances)
 
I would start with the most basic question. How much revenue would liveries bring in? then work this back against costs. Even around me, the livery prices fluctuate hugely depending on the area. Also, be very clear as to "part" and "full" livery as even on this board, people have wildly differing opinions on what this means. In Surrey, the vast majority of livery yards will "only" have an outdoor floodlit school. There is only 1 yard in my area (and I was there for a while till my YO moved on) which had the sort of facilities described (XC, SJ arena etc) and I did pay a serious premium for having use of these facilities (and still had to pay to use the XC albeit at a reduced rate). Now I am on assisted DIY and have my hay included and 1 bring in or turn out which works for me.
 
You might be interested in the issue of Horse magazine which is out at the moment. They have an article on the legal side of running a livery yard, haven't read it yet so I don't know how detailed it is but might be worth a look.
 
An 8 box yard is a perfect size! Enough horses about to ensure company for horses whether in or out. But also not too many that it feels manic or too difficult to get hold of the arena etc. I do know many friends who have struggled to balance the books though with this size yard as its too small to warrant hiring full time staff but they had struggled to devote time to their own horses. I would stick to 6 part livery boxes (full livery without ridden option) to still take in an income but leaves you with enough time for your own two. You could add lunging etc as an additional extra for when liveries go away on holiday.
 
Let's say £150/week for full livery, given 4 boxes makes £31,200 gross assuming NO voids. £15,000 after all costs, tops?

For that, you're opening yourself up to a whole world of pain and work!

Why not either find a "yard sharer", who you get on with and who really does share your approach, or perhaps do holiday livery, all in? Can be a devil getting holiday cover....

At least then you would be in full control.

Sorry to sound negative.
 
No DIY will pay £65 a week - no chance!

It sounds like a lovely yard. I'm in full livery and yours seems to offer more in the way of hacking. My yard has a walker that I don't use, a huge floodlit arena, nice stables, good grass and a gem of a yard owner. I certainly don't need anything more.
 
I paid £65 per week but I was on DIY at a top SJ yard whilst he was abroad and the yard was rented by some dressage rider who wanted to earn some money. I didn't mind because it suited me at the time but she got greedy told me she wanted my stable for a full livery in the expectation no doubt that I would fork out for full livery price. Soon left.

It had an indoor and outdoor school, use of hot water shower and solarium and occasional (very occasional) turnout in the paddocks if it wasn't raining or there wasn't a d in the day! I had to pay for hard feed, supplements, hay and bedding (bedding was free to me anyway as I used to get my shavings F.O.C from the timber yard).

At a previous yard it was around £60 assisted DIY but turnout/bring in weekdays was cheap and I didn't mind paying weekends when I had to. Hay was included in the price. I pay around £230-£240 per month now, which is turn out or in (one a day and one weekend day sometimes) and hay included in price or around £290 with muck out weekdays only.
 
Louby-Jay said:
From experience in my area, people who want full livery also want the facilities of competitions, cross country etc. They don't want to pay for full livery on a smaller yard with nothing other than an arena.

This is just in my area though. It may be different in others.
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There are two groupls of people - those who want to compete and those who don't - there are both of those types of people in any area. Not everyone with the money to pay full livery wants to compete.
 
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