Starting from scratch.

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littlen

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Wondering if anyone has any advice?

I have always had issues with horse. Main ones being a complete refusal to work 'on the bit', constant head in air as an evasion tactic resulting in a weak V shaped back end which is stopping any hope of ever showing him etc (obviously I couldnt till I had the outline either) I have used a market harborough for months as he has a habit of throwing his head back and he nearly broke my nose last summer by hitting me in the face.
He is also pretty spooky and has been known to rear and buck but hasnt for months. He can also be very strong in company due to excitement and I cant stop once he goes.
He is also very unbalanced and wobbly, and finds canter hard especially around corners as he is very stiff.

Current tack is
Flash noseband- Stop opening mouth and playing with the bit.
French Link snaffle
Market harborough- lower head.
I have also used a pelham in strong situations and he does lower his head in this better and throws his head less BUT he is very sensitive and I am scared he will end up with a harder mouth due to constant pelham use. I will still use it for hacking in company though as I fear I wont come back in a snaffle.

He has also not been ridden for months due to weather etc but he has not improved even with this tack which was supposed to help. He still throws his head in the MH and still evades the bit even with a flash...

Talking to a friend today she suggested I just start again. I am sure its not as easy as that but I wondered what would happen if I spent a while trying with basic tack. She also suggested a running martingale and plain cavesson or drop. I have asked about these before in a previous post but am still undecided on what to do!

So, if i did take everything off and go in the school, what sort of things do I do next? What excersises will help and how long will I need to school for to see a result! How do I know if he is more comfortable, as he throws his head no matter what I put him in?
Do i start with just literally the bare minimum or do I change to drop etc from the off?
He does go well in the pelham but I am unsure if its a 'false outline' as he has no topline and never has no matter what bit he is in.

I cant afford an instructor and he has had all neccessary checks and an mot and is in no pain at all?
 
My horse goes best in a pelham, and also goes nicely in a kimblewick. If your hands are soft, using a pelham all the time should not make his mouth hard at all. How about lunging him in a pessoa - he sounds like he needs to start working correctly, then he might stop so many evasion tactics.

Hope you get it sorted anyway!
 
My horse is the master of evasion when schooling, from tanking off to stopping dead, via head tossing, foot stamping and bucking!

He's ridden in a french link hanging cheek snaffle, running martingale and flash noseband (and a saddle, obviously). He's 15, I've had him 7 years but we only ever really hacked before the start of this year.

I've almost completely eradicated his "issues" now, haven't changed his tack but took him right back to basics, re-teaching transitions and bend, and basic lateral work. He's come on in leaps and bounds, and is much happier doing flatwork now (and so am I :p) The same approach might work with your boy :) good luck.
 
This being the modern world, I don't suppose there's a chance you could give him 6 months to a year off?
In the olden days, when Noah and myself were young, we would turn a horse away for a season/year and then start again with the basics (eggbut and drop noseband was about as technical as it got) and very often, that did the trick. All those wrong muscles reduced to slop (along with the right ones, but hey, you got to start over) mouth rested, brain rested, legs and back rested. a 'dose of Dr Green' was the answer to everything!

The alternative I seem to recall was to take him out hunting with the fastest pack you could find and put the fear of God in him, but that would probably be frowned on too!!!!
 
Y'know, I have never suggested it to anyone on here before, but I really would try him bitless and see what the result is. Either an English hackamore or a Dr Cook type bridle.

Even if his mouth has checked out fine now he might have remembered pain from a former owner and it is this fear making him constantly chuck his head in the air. You can lunge and longline in a Dr C, but not in a hackamore obviously.

He might surprise you.
 
Ladyinred said:
I didn't dare say that! Thought it might be a bit too radical for HHO :D:D
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Start everything in a rope head collar, in this case when you have contained him with a flash and a martingale and he's still not right, you need to be radical. Yes you could turn him away but, I think this needs to be sorted, and it's only radical if you don't or haven't done it.

I'm not saying this is the only solution or that it would work, but unless you see for yourself, you'd never know. These forums are only for people to bounce ideas about after all. Lots of folk would disagree, sure, but lots won't ride anything, no matter how safe, in anything other than a bit and bridle.
 
AndySpooner said:
Start everything in a rope head collar, in this case when you have contained him with a flash and a martingale and he's still not right, you need to be radical. Yes you could turn him away but, I think this needs to be sorted, and it's only radical if you don't or haven't done it.

I'm not saying this is the only solution or that it would work, but unless you see for yourself, you'd never know. These forums are only for people to bounce ideas about after all. Lots of folk would disagree, sure, but lots won't ride anything, no matter how safe, in anything other than a bit and bridle.
Click to expand...

No no, you got me wrong. I 100% agree, we start all ours in headcollars and only ever add as much as we need to. That's the way to achieve softness.
 
Ladyinred said:
No no, you got me wrong. I 100% agree, we start all ours in headcollars and only ever add as much as we need to. That's the way to achieve softness.
Click to expand...

No, I do understand what you were saying, it was the 'too radical' bit that amused me, which is why I quoted you.

I do think that you are right about achieving softness.
 
Whatever you do, do take into consideration that your horse will (hopefully) be building up new muscles so take it slowly so he doesn't injure or hurt himself. Think of yourself going back to the gym after a gap or walking up a very steep hill...

And also you need to take into consideration it will take at least 6 months for any results to start to show. Horses have muscle memory (like we do) but as yours didn't the correct ones to start with, it will take a while for them to build up.
 
If he were mine I would be recognising that he is clearly uncomfortable in the region of his head! I'd start by removing the flash and the market harbrough and allowing him to relax his jaw... I'd then begin to evaluate whether he'd be happier in a different bit (just because you prefer a 'kinder' bit, doesn't make it comfortable for him!) or indeed no bit at all and then I 'd start encouraging him to work in a relaxed manner... notice the word relaxed springs up quite frequently... it is key!
 
littlen said:
Wondering if anyone has any advice?

I have always had issues with horse. Main ones being a complete refusal to work 'on the bit', constant head in air as an evasion tactic resulting in a weak V shaped back end which is stopping any hope of ever showing him etc (obviously I couldnt till I had the outline either) I have used a market harborough for months as he has a habit of throwing his head back and he nearly broke my nose last summer by hitting me in the face.
He is also pretty spooky and has been known to rear and buck but hasnt for months. He can also be very strong in company due to excitement and I cant stop once he goes.
He is also very unbalanced and wobbly, and finds canter hard especially around corners as he is very stiff.

Current tack is
Flash noseband- Stop opening mouth and playing with the bit.
French Link snaffle
Market harborough- lower head.
I have also used a pelham in strong situations and he does lower his head in this better and throws his head less BUT he is very sensitive and I am scared he will end up with a harder mouth due to constant pelham use. I will still use it for hacking in company though as I fear I wont come back in a snaffle.

He has also not been ridden for months due to weather etc but he has not improved even with this tack which was supposed to help. He still throws his head in the MH and still evades the bit even with a flash...

Talking to a friend today she suggested I just start again. I am sure its not as easy as that but I wondered what would happen if I spent a while trying with basic tack. She also suggested a running martingale and plain cavesson or drop. I have asked about these before in a previous post but am still undecided on what to do!

So, if i did take everything off and go in the school, what sort of things do I do next? What excersises will help and how long will I need to school for to see a result! How do I know if he is more comfortable, as he throws his head no matter what I put him in?
Do i start with just literally the bare minimum or do I change to drop etc from the off?
He does go well in the pelham but I am unsure if its a 'false outline' as he has no topline and never has no matter what bit he is in.

I cant afford an instructor and he has had all neccessary checks and an mot and is in no pain at all?
Click to expand...


I had a mare for about two years who was a problem ride. Not so hollow, but very strong with a hard mouth and hardly any brakes. I inherited this from her previous owners, so just wondering what your horses history is? I spent two years re-schooling my mare. She did improve but was never going to be the ride I wanted, or fit to compete really. I am an experienced, effective rider having worked as a professional groom for 20 years. Some horses can't always be improved. You say you can't afford an instructor but it may well be the quickest, most effective solution. Not meaning to be rude, but have you really looked at how well you ride? Often horses with a poor way of going can end up causing the rider to develop bad habits - it happened to me with my mare and took a long time to iron them out once she was sold. She went to a lovely home; someone who doesn't mind jig jogging with a mouthful of ears! Again, a very common thing you hear is riders resorting to 'gagets' as it were to improve a horse, when what would be more effective is some quality instruction for both of you. Save the money you would spend on a new bit and get some lessons instead.
 
Have to agree with the need for lessons, but if that really isn't an option at the moment, get someone to video you riding the horse, then be absolutely honest with yourself, is your riding good enough? Are you adding to the problem, rather than helping to solve it? Can you get a knowlegable friend to observe and give you tips, all worth a try.
 
It may be that you think he's being a deliberately hideous tit but believe me, it won't be that. He's trying to tell you something and it's up to you to work it out. I know you said you can't afford an instructor but honest to god that's what you need to kick start your search for answers. It could be tack, back, teeth, feet, shoulders, bellyache, hips, feed, your riding, misery with his management, you name it. But you've done the basic checks so your best bet is to splash out on just a couple of lessons. It could be your riding but even if it isn't, a competent instructor will be able to tell you at least where the fault lies. Have you tried riding him bareback or sitting on his rug? Does he do the same loose schooled or on the lunge, ie NO rider?
 
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