Starting up small private yard at home.. suggestions?

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Passionflower

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Me & my partner have got lucky and are able to move into a relatives farm house with afew barns and land. Work needs doing to it and internal stables are being built around christmas time.. very excited!

Now.. we have 3 horses and we are building 9 stables. 6 internal and 3 on the yard which ours will be.

Afew friends want to keep their horses there, like a small livery yard :) Im just wondering, what do people look for in a livery yard? like for mine.. a MUST would have to be a rug drying room :D as i hate waiting for rugs to dry!! im writing down a list of things what need to be done & what would attract people to come.
 
From experience - don't do it.

If you're going to do it anyway you need to consider facilities, access, services, lighting, water, business rates, public liability insurance etc etc
 
RunToEarth said:
From experience - don't do it.

If you're going to do it anyway you need to consider facilities, access, services, lighting, water, business rates, public liability insurance etc etc
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This ^

and contracts - very firm ones & make sure you get everything covered from liabilities to the need to give them notice, what you do with abandonment, late payers, non-payers, services offered etc.

Good luck

TFF, own yard, no liveries (ever again!)
 
RunToEarth said:
From experience - don't do it.

If you're going to do it anyway you need to consider facilities, access, services, lighting, water, business rates, public liability insurance etc etc
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Really? :/ how come?
We are going to be living on site with our 3 horses then we have a barn we can use for friends for a small fee. You think its a bad idea?
 
Turn out/in, good turn out time all year round if poss, outdoor arena, somewhere like a locker for private items, being allowed to order up own feed, Toilet, somewhere for a sit down, cost depends on what you are prepared to offer your liveries DIY - Full livery good luck to you I will be following your post.
 
Passionflower said:
Really? :/ how come?
We are going to be living on site with our 3 horses then we have a barn we can use for friends for a small fee. You think its a bad idea?
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Letting stables on your own yard for a small fee still constitutes business use and therefore business rates will still apply. As smellsofhorse says you will also have to look into PP to change use, I'm guessing they will be primarily agricultural at the moment.

Having a yard on your doorstep for small time money is not worth the hassle, it can also be a good way for friendships to turn a bit sour. We had liveries at home for a few years before the 24/7 turn up on your doorstep for hot water/complaint/washing machine/toilet/run over your dog got tiring and not worth the hassle.

RTE (horses at home, no liveries EVER again)
 
Passionflower said:
Really? :/ how come?
We are going to be living on site with our 3 horses then we have a barn we can use for friends for a small fee. You think its a bad idea?
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massively bad idea IMO. once friends starting exchanging money for services, all sorts of badness happens. Will your small fee cover damage/maintenance/repairs plus all the things that RTE mentions? Will your friends, once they perceive they've paid for XYZ, be happy when X isn't working for a week? Will your small fee cover grazing maintenance if we have another 12 months of rain?Will you be happy with the small fee once people start taking you and your yard for granted?

If you go ahead, do not underprice yourself-make them pay the going rate-you'll still not make any money though. Sorry to sound grim but you should be realistic.
 
dont rent to friends!..............very very bad idea...!

starts with clicks and then it spirals!....


contract in place needed...and very set ground rules!
 
It can work my friend and I have livery at a small private yard (our 2 plus their 7) and it works very well but we are mature, considerate people and the YOs are sane (yes, they exist). They were very reluctant to take liveries but took pity on us when we had to vacate our last yard with very little notice (that YO was breaching their tenancy by having us there and got found out). We all worked at making it work and now 18 months on we have an excellent friendly relationship.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
massively bad idea IMO. once friends starting exchanging money for services, all sorts of badness happens. Will your small fee cover damage/maintenance/repairs plus all the things that RTE mentions? Will your friends, once they perceive they've paid for XYZ, be happy when X isn't working for a week? Will your small fee cover grazing maintenance if we have another 12 months of rain?Will you be happy with the small fee once people start taking you and your yard for granted?

If you go ahead, do not underprice yourself-make them pay the going rate-you'll still not make any money though. Sorry to sound grim but you should be realistic.
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i am being realistic.. its not like they are my BEST friends, its people ive known for a while. it would be £30 a week per stable. includes turning in/out, rugs changed & feed/net chucked in if are stabled. Looked into changing the use of building and land which isnt a problem, stables on the yard are existing just need rebuilding and ive set up a contract which has everything in it, the barn which we are using for the stables/liveries is the furthest away from the house, my partner is a handyman and can fix fences and all that stuff. we are friends with somebody who comes to the farm everyday as he keeps his tractor there which is willing to do field maintenance, me & partner work full time so thats an extra income cutting my days down to monday to thursday (i work for my dad so wages will stay the same) also its very secured and family members are down there most of the day.. Insurance is £300 a year for 9-10 horses.. cant think of anything else to add!
 
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I would imagine that many of these arrangements are done on the quiet and not declared as business, the insurance, fire regulations, access requirements, waste disposal rules etc is enough to put off those just wanting to help out a friend

All very well until something goes wrong (Ooooh I sound like my granny!) I have found in the past when a situation goes belly up people are very quick to threaten legal action

Welshd - ponies on rented yard no liveries
 
WelshD said:
I would imagine that many of these arrangements are donw on the quiet and not declared as business, the insurance, fire regulations, access requirements etc is enough to put off those just wanting to help out a friend

All very well until something goes wrong (Ooooh I sound like my granny!) I have found in the past when a situation goes belly up people are very quick to threaten legal action

Welshd - ponies on rented yard no liveries
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Yes i understand about the legal action, a very good contract is in place. it's only going to be a small yard as the one woman i know already has 4 horses so she wants 4 stables then somebody else we know has 2 so hopefully it'll work out well.
 
Very strict rules and regulations! I rented to friends before and they followed the rules because they were clear cut, it can work well if they are in place. Don't do it now as no room! :D
 
RTE makes very good points.

Personally, I would say, besides all the insurance etc, etc, etc.

Do your time and motion thing, and your sums, and make sure you cover your costs and labour, and that it is worth your while. 30 pounds a week including bring in/turn out is dirt cheap. What is the minimum wage? Factor that in too. Dealing with 6 other horses will add an hour or so to your day - don't give your time away.

From the word 'Go' have your rules set firmly in stone, then screw, nail, and glue them down as well.

Keep your personal areas your own, if you intend to use certain paddocks etc for yourself then make that crystal clear, be consistent, fair but firm, and remember - in the words of a plaque someone once gave me "MY RANCH, MY RULES" (something I would do well to remember :( )

I wouldn't dream of saying don't do it, but if, and/or, when, you do, remember it is a business contract and friendship cannot be allowed to come into it.
 
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Passionflower said:
i am being realistic.. its not like they are my BEST friends, its people ive known for a while. it would be £30 a week per stable. includes turning in/out, rugs changed & feed/net chucked in if are stabled. Looked into changing the use of building and land which isnt a problem, stables on the yard are existing just need rebuilding and ive set up a contract which has everything in it, the barn which we are using for the stables/liveries is the furthest away from the house, my partner is a handyman and can fix fences and all that stuff. we are friends with somebody who comes to the farm everyday as he keeps his tractor there which is willing to do field maintenance, me & partner work full time so thats an extra income cutting my days down to monday to friday (i work for my dad so wages will stay the same) also its very secured and family members are down there most of the day.. Insurance is £300 a year for 9-10 horses.. cant think of anything else to add!
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well then you have everything covered, well done! If you don't mind doing all that for 6 extra horses, work full time plus 3 of your own-well, you just have more energy than I do :p

MoC-ex groom,ex YM, ex-livery horse owner, ex yard sharer, ex-yard sub-letter, now has own yard and couldn't be paid enough to have other people on her yard :p
 
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Passionflower said:
Yes i understand about the legal action, a very good contract is in place. it's only going to be a small yard as the one woman i know already has 4 horses so she wants 4 stables then somebody else we know has 2 so hopefully it'll work out well.
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As few owners as possible will certainly make life a lot easier! Well since you have looked in to it and are happy my wish list for a yard would be

Decent hardstanding - I would love to be able to do yard tasks without trudging through mud
The rug drying space is good
Mini lockable store rooms would be nice - even just a £100 B&Q shed (ideally in a barn) would be ok for the basics
Somewhere to sit and relax with a couple of freecycle sofas maybe
a loo!
 
i can see why people are saying no but i am only 20 years old and when something comes up like this im going to jump at it especially when you pay livery owners for years and years to enjoy your horses at THERE house. it annoys me lol. the one woman who is definitely coming knows alot, she works at a stud and has done all exams etc, so i do really hope it works out. and £30 a stable a week is cheap do you think so? :) im just wondering as i pay £35 a week per horse so il look into that.

we do have a toilet in the utility which is seperate to the house which they can obviously use
we have a secure tack room and looking to get lockers etc
warm feed room with kettle and sofas
rug drying racks
it will be all year turnout unless it gets really bad and they will be stabled but if it clears up they can go out for afew hours. i dont think i could manage a big livery but i think it'll only be 2 liveries as they have afew horses each!
 
I hate to join in the negative comments but it didn't work for me.
OH was constantly fixing broken doors, gates, fences, jumps etc which is costly and it just annoyed him.
Looking after extra horses ate into my riding time.
Lots of niggley things that I won't bother listing but makes you wonder, for minimal money, is this really worth it?
Purchasing things on small scale was expensive while they came from big livery yards where they were able to buy stuff cheaply in huge loads, so were 'surprised' about the prices.
Not being able to go away when I wanted or trying to look after a load of horses when I was sick was not fun.
Now I have a humongous muck heap to try to get rid of for my efforts.

I won't do that again. Now I just do retirement grass livery. Owners tend to only visit retired horses once a week so that suits me just fine. Plus they don't use my arena so my jumps are safe!
 
well, livery prices vary all over the country. Here in Southern Scotland you can get cheap pure DIY for £25pw but the place will have no or poor facilities-and no wonder really. Most DIY here includes straw and hay and is about £45-55pw- turnout and bringing in would be extra.

To bring in 6 extra horses or turn them out and change rugs-well that's a fair bit of work so do not underprice yourself. ideally you should be factoring in income tax,NI if you earn over a certain threshold,sick/holiday pay/ personal insurance as well. Knowing you are being paid a reasonable amount helps when you feel crap, are pushed for time with your own horses, being asked to fill in at last minute and when the weather is rubbish!

he other thing is-sometimes the person with the most horses may think they are more important than those with fewer
 
Passionflower said:
Really? :/ how come?
We are going to be living on site with our 3 horses then we have a barn we can use for friends for a small fee. You think its a bad idea?
Click to expand...

The costs of doing it legally will mostly likely outweigh the income and certainly when you add in the hassle it's not likely to be worth it.
You will need planning permission .
You will be buisness rated on the part of the buildings used for the buisness.
The grazing land may need change of use permission depending on the line your local authority takes .
You will have to insure like a buisness write risk assessments etc etc etc.
Or you could do it without the permissions like many and hope for the best.
 
Please do not invest any money until you have really, really, thought this through. The cost of converting an existing barn could be £500 a stable and then you have the electrics which will have to be NIC inspected. People have already said about costs but they haven't said about having the 'nutter' on your doorstep. Its your home and for what ever reason someone is not happy and it becomes a war and its in your back garden. I had one of these last year and for £200 a month there are far easier ways to make money, rewind 'to lose money'. I know you say they are friends but in a way that is the worst sort of person to fall out with. Someone I know is having a problem with a horsey neighbour of 30years they have always got on well, but she was almost in tears just talking about it, its so bad she can not sleep and wants to move.
Get you own stables sorted, see how much it costs you, and do not believe anything anyone tells you.
 
I'd be honestly amazed if you could get full public liability insurance, employers insurance (for you farmer friend who's helping out or 16 y/o who turns out for you while your away for a weekend), personal injury for you (so if you're injured you can employ someone to turn out etc.) etc. for a commercial yard for £300.
I suspect if it really was this cheap then more people would be properly insured.

Business rates for 6 stables and school are likely to be in the region of £3/4000 - so all the income from at least 2 stables will be spend on rates

Are you on metered water? water and electric (flood lights cost loads!) can really add up

i understand why you'd be so excited but why not just stick at being excited to have you're own horses at home. £30 a week for 6 stables is under £10k a year - and Idone properly ) your costs will be close to this so you'll be turning out on christmas morning and new years day for free!! as well as the other 363 days
 
What a lot of negative replies! But I suppose it is hard won experience. There are lots of livery yards around, so it can't all be bad news!

As for the contract, think about anything that might go wrong. Have a "new horse turnout" policy, suggest that YOU buy the wormers, and worm and charge the owners. What happens if an owner doesn't look after the horse correctly. Don't make the lounge area TOO comfortable or the owners will be sitting around all day boiling the kettle using your electricity (or charge them enough so it doesn't matter). ARe you going to charge a rent for horsebox/trailer storage, or is that included.

I think you are young and energetic, so long as you go into it with your eyes open give it a try.
 
You seem to have it all worked out. The one piece of advice I would say is don't do turn out /bring in as standard - that's the slippery slope to doing everything in my experience. My YO does it only if there's no other option and charges £1.50 a day. We tend to rely on favours from each other and a rota systyem for turning out and it works really well. The one girl who insisted she had to have it was soon not bothering to come up and muck out or bring in etc. She didn't last very long! By all means share responsibility with the liveries but don't do it all - especially not for £30 a week. Where I am that's standard for DIY with nothing so you'd be selling yourself short.

I'd also have a really clear set of rules that everybody agrees to when they sign their contracts.

My yard is pretty good on facilities (good trailer parking, big concrete yard with lots of space, outdoor floodlit school) but the two things I covet most are pretty basic - a hardstanding area at the front of their winter field and a hot water tap. I'm sick of boiling 12 kettlefulls every time I have to bath one of my boys (they're both grey!) I don't even want a horse shower, just a hot water tap!

I hope it works out for you, best of luck.
 
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