Stepping up BN to Disco/newcomers

[056775]

Am going to see a 5 yo at the weekend over the course of a 3 day show with view of buying.

Has 7 DC on his card at BN all from this year but despite many attempts - has not gone clear at any thing bigger.. Has tried 5 YO classes at Welsh Masters and as far as I know a few Disco's.

From what I've been told and been able to check - he's not a 4 faulter.. There are 2-3 knock downs constantly.

Owner says he's week behind and needs more flat work

I'm very happy to put the work in but worried that the mind set is already established that its ok to be careless...

Am lucky enough that I get to see him compete before making my mind up. From photos - very nicely put together. Tucks up a treat in front. Comformation wise behind is very look front and behind.

Thoughts please on whether you would be put off if it just isn't coming through and being is being careless?

16.2 Belgium warm blood on professional show jumping yard so having lots of exposure.

Many thanks

 

[little_flea]

Unless there are some very good reasons, like spooking or serious rider errors, I would be put off. If it was just one fence it could just be down to inexperience, but with a pro rider, that many down seems too much. A lot of young horses are weak behind but evenso a show jumping prospect should be able to do better rounds than that. How did it do at Welsh Masters? First day was kind but got bigger than a Disco after that.

Could of course also be tension - does it jump clear at home without obvious signs of back boots etc?

 

[showjumpingfilly]

Have to say i'd agree with littleflea.

Am put off by the 2-3 down and definately would have expected more than BN double clears for a horse that a pro rider has put in a 5 yo class/has been attempting disco on since april.

 

[little_flea]

Also of course depends what your plans are for the horse - is it just a buy cheap, produce for sale & profit, or is it for you to keep and jump long term? A bad horse costs as much as a good one in upkeep, so starting out with something perhaps not talented enough for you might just be heartbreaking if you love it and don't get the results you want... It is a buyers market out there so you shouldn't be short of options!

 

[056775]

Hey guys thanks for that.. Kinda my trail of thinking. Paying ok money to keep and ideally do age classes with and 1.20's maybe one day (dream) 1.30's.

Owner is very well respected and can find so much good feed back from what she has sold and she suggested this to one to me after I called about a 4 year old whom she thought would top out at 1.10.

Didn't go clear first rounds from what I could find.

I'm lucky enought to be on a great yard with top trainers doing clinics monthly and awesome facilities topped with an over enthusiastic "helper" who mainly does dressage and would help me get it really fit and working well on the flat to strengthen up behind.

It's doing 6 classes this weekend - not remotely worried about placings, But thought 3/6 DC and they get the cash...

Think that's a bit generous or not?!

Ps have been told its schooled over 1-20 at home

 

[Baggybreeches]

Personally, in my experience youngsters that are well produced ten to rock up DCs pretty quickly because at that stage they still tend to over jump slightly and be ultra careful (plus if they are well ridden they will be well presented at the fences). In your situation I would maybe try for an older more established horse that has gone up the grades and jumped 1.40s but needs/wants an easier life and there should be a fair few of them knocking about.

 

[Supanova]

I think its very difficult to tell and in some ways only you can judge from seeing it jump and watching it ridden. If its from a pro yard then we are all assuming its well ridden etc and therefore on that basis 2-3 down does seem quite a lot, but maybe there is really something about the way it is being ridden or a weakness in its flat work that is causing it. What i would want to see, is if it learns from its mistakes. For example, can you see it ridden on an angle to an upright with a reasonably solid pole - if it has it down the first down, does it learn and pick up the second time? Does it have a good technique? Does it have scope?

Yes really, really careful horses will probably be jumping lots of DCs already but these super careful ones are also sometimes harder to ride if you want something bold to take you up the grades. Also, on the other side, in my experiece there are few horses that really don't care about having fences down.

I have produced my 6 yr old really carefully and her record does not show many DCs - as a 5 year old we would have 2-3 down in Disco because she was a big horse and struggled to get her front end out of the way (maybe a pro would have done better with her). However, she is definitely, definitely careful minded and its just a matter of her learning and me riding her in the best way. I think some horses just take a bit longer to click than others.

The only thing i would add - i'd be more worried if its having fences behind than in front!

 

[showjumpingfilly]

At an away show i would definately be expecting double clears - i've known horses get all their disco clears or all newcomers in one show - ok cant generalise but would definately expecting some results this show!

Personally i think if it's bashing poles out in first round of disco - which is really only bn jump off height - then i'd be tempted to look elsewhere. You're going to be spending a reasonable amount of money afterall.

There are plenty of nice horses on the market for not a lot these days.

Whereabouts are you? Maybe some of us could recommend some yards?

 

[philamena]

I'm no showjumper and a long long way from being a pro, but... if the vendor thinks it's only a matter of a little time and extra work before the horse's performance improves, would it not be making business sense to get it operating at that level before selling it for more money? Sounds a little 'off loady' to me. Plus just on the really basic level, if you have the money for a horse which is performing at the level, why take the risk on one that isn't? Even if lots of people think it probably will, it might not!

 

[056775]

I think its very difficult to tell and in some ways only you can judge from seeing it jump and watching it ridden. If its from a pro yard then we are all assuming its well ridden etc and therefore on that basis 2-3 down does seem quite a lot, but maybe there is really something about the way it is being ridden or a weakness in its flat work that is causing it. What i would want to see, is if it learns from its mistakes. For example, can you see it ridden on an angle to an upright with a reasonably solid pole - if it has it down the first down, does it learn and pick up the second time? Does it have a good technique? Does it have scope?

Yes really, really careful horses will probably be jumping lots of DCs already but these super careful ones are also sometimes harder to ride if you want something bold to take you up the grades. Also, on the other side, in my experiece there are few horses that really don't care about having fences down.

I have produced my 6 yr old really carefully and her record does not show many DCs - as a 5 year old we would have 2-3 down in Disco because she was a big horse and struggled to get her front end out of the way (maybe a pro would have done better with her). However, she is definitely, definitely careful minded and its just a matter of her learning and me riding her in the best way. I think some horses just take a bit longer to click than others.

The only thing i would add - i'd be more worried if its having fences behind than in front!

Thank you so much for this - many things you have mentioned I have questioned/discussed and its generally/always a back leg and she has said to me he is week behind and due to the size of the area she has at home and number of young horses they have, he hasn't been given the work he really needs (which I will).

Lovely technique - exactly the movement you would want to see and conformation wise is literally spot on. I'm no expert on conformation but showed him to some one I know who certainly is and she was surprised I had found one with such good conformation and technique (as tends to be quite critical!)

I'm still not put off and excited by him - guess every thing "rides" on this weekend.

By the way - I'm not interested in a been there horse but thank you for the message any way. Want some thing to work with.. I think I was being over zealous having ambitions of 1.30's but this horse has to be able to do 1.20's in next 18 months - that's my only real goal.

 

[Supanova]

Thank you so much for this - many things you have mentioned I have questioned/discussed and its generally/always a back leg and she has said to me he is week behind and due to the size of the area she has at home and number of young horses they have, he hasn't been given the work he really needs (which I will).

.

You're welcome! My only note of caution is that I would be a little dubious of the weak back end / lack of work being used as an excuse for having fences behind at that height so just make sure you watch carefully his back end action over a fence. If you do decide to buy it, i'd also make sure you get his back end checked thoroughly to make sure there is no physical issue.

Have you ridden him yet? Do you like riding him? How does he feel over a fence?

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

 

[056775]

You're welcome! My only note of caution is that I would be a little dubious of the weak back end / lack of work being used as an excuse for having fences behind at that height so just make sure you watch carefully his back end action over a fence. If you do decide to buy it, i'd also make sure you get his back end checked thoroughly to make sure there is no physical issue.

Have you ridden him yet? Do you like riding him? How does he feel over a fence?

Good luck and let us know how you get on!

Again great advise

I was going to see how he went and if generally happy with his going and if he managed at least 3 DC was going to have a little sit on him on Sunday at the show - pop just a few fences (appreciate he'll be tired on day three) in one of the more quiet collecting rings and either put down a deposit or not...

REALLY want him to have some DC's...

 

[TarrSteps]

I think you're getting a bit obsessed with the DCs, to be honest. It's not just whether or not the horse gets them it's HOW it gets them. I agree with Supanova - a big horse without the necessary ridability can be having fences in front for all sorts of reasons, even with a pro on it. Perhaps the pro is used to nippy ones and keeps jamming it into the bottom in an effort to make it quicker when it really needs to have a gap until it's stronger?

Behind would worry me more. There are lots of things you can do to improve horses in front but hind ends tend to be largely mechanical. The horse might be weak and falling over its shoulder but it should still be able to flip the back end up.

Re who us selling it. . .presumably they are in the business of selling horses, yes? They've hardly going to tell you they don't rate it.

As far as movement and conformation. handsome is as handsome does. There are lots of very good jumpers that aren't perfect by a long shot. As to movement, outside of a good canter, it's really not important. There is a video around now of Eric Lamaze warming up his new ride, Powerplay. I think this horse is one of the best jumpers in the world and it looks decidedly ordinary on the flat.

Ditto technique. Can I ask what you mean by that? Do you mean it's good in front? Again, back to above, if it is regularly having rails behind I'd be wondering if there is a whole there.

What does you coach say? He/she is much more invested in your future success than the person selling the horse and presumably if you've been jumping 1.20s you have someone decent on side.

I agree you need to have a horse you like and enjoy riding. I think that's actually very important. But if you want him jumping 1.20s consistently in 18 months you will really have to start with the right raw material.

Re trying him. Obviously there are advantages to trying him at a competition, but any horse that age, especially one already described as weak, is going to be dead on its feet after three days jumping. It certainly won't feel its best. To be honest, I'd even wonder if a horse that young who takes a trial in that situation without a peep might even be too blah to make a good, careful horse. And I like horizontal ones so that's saying something.

You have to go and see. If he gets 3 DCs just because the gods smile on him, that shouldn't offset your observations

Sorry if that all sounds a bit blunt but it sounds to me like you're wanting to buy a proper jumper and pay accordingly. The rules are a bit different if you want a nice 'friend' and all rounder but you want a very specific set of skills.

 

[little_flea]

Also, he might not have been competed by the pro - maybe a stable jockey who is less competent which would account for the record. And I do agree about lack of double clears not necessarily being the be all and end all - my mare didn't start jumping until she was 6 and has been very slow to mature. She is very scopey and careful but the combination of my less than brilliant riding and her being green/slow learner we have had plenty of rounds with faults although she is happily jumping round Foxhunters with jump off now and schooling pretty big at home.

The horse could have faults if it is stressed/green/spooky/badly ridden - it just concerns me that it will do consistent DCs on BN but not in Discovery - it is 2 holes up and only 1m! Did it do a double clears at the same show/same ring as a bad round in Disco? That would worry me a little.

I think you just have to go and see and try and be as levelheaded as you can, which it sounds like you are.

Out of interest, how much do they want for it? (you don't have to say of course). And did it jump before it came to the UK?

 

[056775]

I think you're getting a bit obsessed with the DCs, to be honest. It's not just whether or not the horse gets them it's HOW it gets them. I agree with Supanova - a big horse without the necessary ridability can be having fences in front for all sorts of reasons, even with a pro on it. Perhaps the pro is used to nippy ones and keeps jamming it into the bottom in an effort to make it quicker when it really needs to have a gap until it's stronger?

Behind would worry me more. There are lots of things you can do to improve horses in front but hind ends tend to be largely mechanical. The horse might be weak and falling over its shoulder but it should still be able to flip the back end up.

Re who us selling it. . .presumably they are in the business of selling horses, yes? They've hardly going to tell you they don't rate it.

As far as movement and conformation. handsome is as handsome does. There are lots of very good jumpers that aren't perfect by a long shot. As to movement, outside of a good canter, it's really not important. There is a video around now of Eric Lamaze warming up his new ride, Powerplay. I think this horse is one of the best jumpers in the world and it looks decidedly ordinary on the flat.

Ditto technique. Can I ask what you mean by that? Do you mean it's good in front? Again, back to above, if it is regularly having rails behind I'd be wondering if there is a whole there.

What does you coach say? He/she is much more invested in your future success than the person selling the horse and presumably if you've been jumping 1.20s you have someone decent on side.

I agree you need to have a horse you like and enjoy riding. I think that's actually very important. But if you want him jumping 1.20s consistently in 18 months you will really have to start with the right raw material.

Re trying him. Obviously there are advantages to trying him at a competition, but any horse that age, especially one already described as weak, is going to be dead on its feet after three days jumping. It certainly won't feel its best. To be honest, I'd even wonder if a horse that young who takes a trial in that situation without a peep might even be too blah to make a good, careful horse. And I like horizontal ones so that's saying something.

You have to go and see. If he gets 3 DCs just because the gods smile on him, that shouldn't offset your observations

Sorry if that all sounds a bit blunt but it sounds to me like you're wanting to buy a proper jumper and pay accordingly. The rules are a bit different if you want a nice 'friend' and all rounder but you want a very specific set of skills.

Thanks for that and blunt is fine!

Am buying to compete as an amateur. Not interested in him becoming an all rounder - is just the SJ am interested in - but also as I'm not a producer/dealer this horse will also become a friend and not machine.

I'm not expecting to go onto magical and amazing things with just one working horse and not paying such a large deal of money that I think that would be possible

Just concerns me that since March he's been jumping disco's and can not get over a course clean.. So while not becoming obsessed with clean form - I was wondering with effectively no form - is there maybe an underlying back problem, that causes such carelessness or perhaps isn't able to get over the bigger fences.

Good point re: whether goes clear or not - and of course again will be how he does it and not so much that he did.

I just find it slightly bizarre that to go dc in BN would have had to go over a course (be it shortened) at 1m but then has such trouble in first rounds at Disco...

 

[056775]

Also, he might not have been competed by the pro - maybe a stable jockey who is less competent which would account for the record. And I do agree about lack of double clears not necessarily being the be all and end all - my mare didn't start jumping until she was 6 and has been very slow to mature. She is very scopey and careful but the combination of my less than brilliant riding and her being green/slow learner we have had plenty of rounds with faults although she is happily jumping round Foxhunters with jump off now and schooling pretty big at home.

The horse could have faults if it is stressed/green/spooky/badly ridden - it just concerns me that it will do consistent DCs on BN but not in Discovery - it is 2 holes up and only 1m! Did it do a double clears at the same show/same ring as a bad round in Disco? That would worry me a little.

I think you just have to go and see and try and be as levelheaded as you can, which it sounds like you are.

Out of interest, how much do they want for it? (you don't have to say of course). And did it jump before it came to the UK?

You have summed it all up - I'm not sure as only have information from BSJA record and some one kindly PM'ed me to say its jumped 6 times at Disco since March so one would assume these would be at the same shows as its card starts in March

Its cheap (i know I know..... cheap for a reason) at £4000..

Came over here as a three year old unbroken, broken and started jumping this season.

I was looking quite seriously for a young horse a few months back and then lost my beloved horse (had him for 24 years) a few weeks ago and life has stood still since. Then another young horse from same yard was bought to my attention - chatted with owner and thought this one would suit my purpose a bit better.

When I was looking - was in the mind of spending around £6000 was some thing decentish - 4/5 years old with a little bit of form.

Just seemed a good shot for the money for the potential - although as with every thing - harder you look more cracks you see.

And to re-iterate - Not looking for any thing exceptional and wouldn't find it for 4k - but needs to be able to be fit for purpose!

Was hoping with my support system, style of management and amount of practical time I can give the/a new horse (perks of owning own business) - I could really get it going well - just need the basics to be right from the start to have something to work with... huh

Feel bit deflated now - roll on Friday! !

 

[056775]

I would definitely go and see him and watch him being jumped as I agree with littleflea it could be rider error or spooking etc and not necessarily the horses lack of ability.

My boy on paper hasn't been the most consistant, he's just turned 8 and jumping Newcomers but is the spookiest thing on four legs in the ring so this makes his life and mine difficult so we will often come out after having a silly fence, it isnt that he has lack of ability, he pops 1.40 tracks at home but he isnt spooky at home he will be a top horse hes just very slow to mature and only just started to grow up now!

So it depends on seeing him really, whether you think he has all the talent there and its just silly little mistakes as part of being a baby he is making, or whether he gets there on a perfect stride, being ridden really well, but is quite happy to wipe them out by the knees!

Good Luck!

This has made me smile ;-) Cheers

 

[kp31]

Hmm, i wouldn't touch it personally. I was told by one of the top riders, front ends can be tidied up back ends can't! It is definitely cheap for a reason. I had a big 17.2 who i produced from a 4 year old, he never had a rail behind, he had a few in front when he was learning what to do with this front legs and how to shorten. He has now gone onto jumping 130's and bigger. It would also worry me that the horse only has D/C in BN. Has he jumped his 2nd rounds? That would also be another telling point, professionals want these horses to jump their 2nd rounds and sell them for more money so that the new owner can ride in the finals. All sounds a bit odd to me. But just my opinion from what you have put.

 

[056775]

Not done second rounds... Yes bit odd hence advise wanted which I've got in abundance !! Cheers

 

[Horsemad12]

I would be vary careful personally.

Any horse that is DC at 90 but cannot manage a clear at 1m would not seem a likely candidate for taking an amateur to jumping 1.20m in 18months.

Of course there are always the exception to the rule....but when buying a new horse I would want the odds stacked in my favour.

 

[Supanova]

Has it only started jumping competitively both BN and Disco since March? If so, it may well not have had 4 DCs BN by end April cut off for 2nd rounds. I do not agree that just because its jumping DCs BN then it should be doing it Disco. If its being ridden badly then it may well just be managing round the BN but if its getting put deep or long then it shows up a little more at Disco.

At this age i personally would not worry one iota over its record - the main thing for you to look at is its soundness, canter, technique over a fence (front and back end) and its scope and as, an amateur, whether or not you like and get on with the horse and enjoy riding it. Also try to read the seller a bit - the more excuses they make for its record, the more wary i would be.

Even if you buy a horse which has jumped consistent DCs with a pro there are no guarantees that you will continue to jump DCs if it doesn't suit you as a rider. As an amateur myself, i sometimes try horses that on paper look really good and go really well for their current jockey, but i just don't feel they are the horse for me.

I agree with TarrSteps - i wouldn't try it at the end of a 3 day show. I'd either try it nearer the beginning or on a separate occasion.

Don't feel deflated just make sure you have your eyes open. Once again good luck!

 

[KatB]

If all you want to do is sj, I'd be looking for a horse that is wanting to keep fences up a bit more. There is nothing more soul destroying than a horse that should be doing well on paper, but has a fence down consistently. I would aslo be less concerned by fences down infront than behind....

 

[little_flea]

Would love to find out how it went!

 

[showjumpingfilly]

Snap! Was thinking about you this morning!

 

[056775]

Hey guys (little Flea and show jumping filly ESP )

I bought him!!

Should have I / shouldnt have I - im not sure...!!! Time will tell!!

Got there Friday nice and early - waited 2.5 hours for the second class (Disco) to start - watched about 10, went to get the dog water for literally two minutes and bloody missed him!!

Waited and watched the 5YO class and no sign of him - checked with seller - they withdrew him as did such a good round in Disco (clear - single phase so unfortunately didnt get to see him go back in) and came 11th out of 67

Saturday -watched him pull shake and cart the jockey around the disco (wearing a standing martingale ;-(( ) Massive scopey jump - but clear - again single phase. Not placed but didnt care about result

Didnt jump 5 yo again as did a "good clear" and didnt jump him Sunday as they withdrew most of their horses as it was BOILING and they just wanted to get going after a good show for the jockey.

So only got to see one round... ;-)

I rode him Sunday - lovely in walk, super relaxed in trot - canter needs lots of work. Hes got so much power he doesnt know how to distribute it

Going to take it back a step and for the next few months just really work very hard on flat work and especially this canter.

He doesnt have any turn out with seller so going to start a nice routine 1/2 in and 1/2 out, horse walker every morning and plenty of schooling and just one weekly jumping lesson to keep him on his toes.

Had planned on just getting straight out there but think if I put in as much hard work as I can now, might do one or two end of season shows and come out next season hard having established our selves.

He's a real baby in the stable and a bit spooky to hack (went for a nice hack around Brooms over the back fields) but he's only 5 and seems very honest and genuine

Whilst I know the seller was trying to sell him - she did say I got a better tune out of him than her daughter and hadn't ever seen him relax so much in the trot.

Very nice people to do business with.

I would post some pics/vid if I had a clue how to!!

Thank you soooo much for all help and advise. Really helped x

 

[michelleyork]

I was at Broomes over the weekend - was this horse a little bay horse by any chance?

I remembered this thread in the back of my mind and sure I past someone who was trying a horse on Sunday!!

 

[056775]

I was at Broomes over the weekend - was this horse a little bay horse by any chance?

I remembered this thread in the back of my mind and sure I past someone who was trying a horse on Sunday!!

Big dark bay?! I took him out the back fields in the (disused) sand arena (I've got very long wavy brown hair if that helps?!) about 11am?! Had a King Charles with me...

How hot was it?!?!? Was there all three days and got amazing colour!

Hope you had a good show x

 

[little_flea]

That is great - congratulations! It sounds like he might just get a bit stressy, is not the easiest ride as well as immature and weak – but actually a really nice horse "in the flesh" - and clearly the Disco clears are coming as well. Hopefully you've managed to get yourself a real bargain! All the best of luck, do keep us updated with how you get on.

 

[056775]

Awww thanks guys - now just trying to find a "cheap" way to get him from Kent to Cardiff!!! ;-(

Seller doesn't think he should go that way in a trailer as he's never been in one or travelled alone or facing forwards

Couldn't take him home on the weekend as my yard has a strict isolation period for new horses - and no space until last week of July...This is going to be a long month!

Will def keep you up dated and yes - think I paid a very fair price for the potential )


WOOOO !

 

[showjumpingfilly]

Wahey!

Congrats on your newbie! Will be following your updates with interest!

Re transport - a shared load with a transport company shouldnt be too expensive. Ive heard good things about Gillies.