Stifle Issues

[Ellietotz]

I've been enjoying going for walks with my mare (gets me fit!) but it recently occurred to me that I didn't ever get her stifles looked at and I know we are way passed all this now but it still niggles at me that we never found anything conclusive to her way of going and I just wish I knew.

The bunny hop type canter, tail swishing more prominent on the right lead (which can show up left hind stifle issues I believe) as well as struggling to get onto that lead every time (though we only hacked and she naturally went on left lead but schooling was rare so could have equally been training/balance/habit), the tiny bone spur on the left hock (potentially from a left stifle issue causing extra pressure?), discomfort over the SI area but not all the time, straight hind limb conformation and croup high, leaving a leg behind/banana peel slip type action, jolting to a stop when coming from canter to trot but finds it easier turning to the left to slow instead. Videos from when I got her to the last time she was ridden had shown improvement in her movement but it was never how it should be.

The osteopath was surprised how mobile her joints were but the left hind was a bit sticky when rotating.

I'm not sure why the stifles weren't ever considered but an issue with them would make sense. Looking at videos of horses with stifle issues too, they do look very similar.

I suppose the question is, is it worth ruling out stifles at this point? It is going to cost about £1020 to xray and ultrasound both stifles and medicate them both if that is what is required. I don't think it'll be covered under insurance so it would just be a credit card fund but I just want to know and if it would benefit her then that would be great. I have a feeling this could be the reason now but part of me thinks I'm just going to find yet another clear scan/xray and I am still left not knowing.

 

[Hepsibah]

There's only one way to find out. If you're in a position financially to do so, go ahead. It may just give you the answer you're looking for.

 

[Tiddlypom]

You could throw the money at it but tbh this mare is older, broken and poorly conformed with multiple issues, so I very much doubt that you would get the end result that you want.

IIRC she's now in her mid teens and has always moved oddly.

 

[Ellietotz]

You could throw the money at it but tbh this mare is older, broken and poorly conformed with multiple issues, so I very much doubt that you would get the end result that you want.

IIRC she's now in her mid teens and has always moved oddly.

That's correct. I guess I still just want to find the reason to her way of going, not for it to change anything, just for my own mind and if it can help her in the process then that is even better. It is just frustrating not knowing the real cause to all of this.

 

[Ossy2]

Could you not go straight to medicating as a trial to see if it helps?
Like you would do a Bute trial?

 

[Ellietotz]

Could you not go straight to medicating as a trial to see if it helps?
Like you would do a Bute trial?

I'm not sure if the vet would do this as it depends on where or what the issue is.

I did do a Bute trial on another note though and she didn't change her way of going at all.

 

[ester]

A lot of stifles end up needing an arthroscopy for diagnostics so it wouldn't be something I'd be starting on in her situation.

 

[Ellietotz]

A lot of stifles end up needing an arthroscopy for diagnostics so it wouldn't be something I'd be starting on in her situation.

Yes, you're right. I just wish I knew what it was. She definitely seems stiffer out of work now though.

 

[HelenBack]

A lot of stifles end up needing an arthroscopy for diagnostics so it wouldn't be something I'd be starting on in her situation.

I don't think that's always the case though. I know arthroscopy is the gold standard but a lot of owners can't afford it if they don't have insurance or would rather not do the surgery. I know quite a few horses who have had their stifles injected and the vets seem happy to do it based on identifying lameness via nerve blocks/ flexion tests. They will suggest arthroscopy but will consider alternative options if the owner can't or doesn't want to do that.

In your case though Ellietotz given that you've had a lot of problems I think I'd give up on trying to find the one specific cause, however upsetting for you that might be, and I'd think about something more systemic like some daily bute. Is gentle in hand exercise an option to help with her stiffness?

 

[Ellietotz]

I don't think that's always the case though. I know arthroscopy is the gold standard but a lot of owners can't afford it if they don't have insurance or would rather not do the surgery. I know quite a few horses who have had their stifles injected and the vets seem happy to do it based on identifying lameness via nerve blocks/ flexion tests. They will suggest arthroscopy but will consider alternative options if the owner can't or doesn't want to do that.

In your case though Ellietotz given that you've had a lot of problems I think I'd give up on trying to find the one specific cause, however upsetting for you that might be, and I'd think about something more systemic like some daily bute. Is gentle in hand exercise an option to help with her stiffness?

We had never done nerve blocks for some reason. I wonder if that would have been a cheaper way of finding out if/where the issue was.

I've been doing lots of walks/short runs (until I'm out of breath!) in hand with her. Bute doesn't change her way of going as I did a trial to see if it made any difference but she was still exactly the same, not that this means there wasn't pain but it didn't change anything movement or behaviour wise so I'm not sure if it would be any use to her or not. The vet hasn't advised it at this stage.

She never had a problem with being ridden, she actually really enjoyed going out on little hacks and it had improved the extension of her hind end, not all the way where it should be but definitely better than it was so I suppose that could have been from strengthening the stifle area, her back was never sore. She's always had a swishy tail but she has also always been very itchy as I posted a couple of times over the years about how itchy she was the moment you'd even put something on her, saddle pad/rugs etc during summer especially. Having said that, she's been on Milk Thistle for a fair few weeks now and it has seemingly gotten a lot better and less swishing! There is a fair amount of clover and yarrow in the field so it could be that, I had her liver tested twice over the years too and it was fine. It isn't an angry swishy tail, just like swishing flies off and full body shakes from being itchy but in this case, it seemed to be more of a helicopter swish in canter on the right rein which is not her usual lead and she was never schooled but could potentially have been the left stifle. It doesn't seem to swish on the left lead in canter. The banana peel slip type movement is seemingly more frequent with less exercise but has gone away with more exercise and rarely occurred when she was in ridden work.

Then lastly was her spooking which can be quite erratic but she is spooky in general as well depending on the time of year but there are an awful lot of monsters where we are, cows, horses, pheasants, chickens and the scariest of all, pigs which roam all over and can probably smell them everywhere! She is spooky in hand at times too and uses me to hide behind! So other than her short hind end stride, all of the checks I'd done so far had been inconclusive of anything and when she is on the forest, I filmed her doing a short lunge and she extended really well compared to when she is at home! I suppose it'll just be one of those things that I'll never know!

Sorry, I've rambled!

 

[Goldenstar]

A lot of stifles end up needing an arthroscopy for diagnostics so it wouldn't be something I'd be starting on in her situation.

I agree but in that situation I might consider putting some steroid in them ( if she’s not a high lami risk ) and see it it helps .

 

[Ellietotz]

I agree but in that situation I might consider putting some steroid in them ( if she’s not a high lami risk ) and see it it helps .

If there were an issue with the stifles, do you think medicating them directly would help if Bute doesn't change her way of going?

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes I think it would but it would not last .
steriod and HA certainly gives Fatty relief as does controlled exercise .

 

[Ellietotz]

Yes I think it would but it would not last .
steriod and HA certainly gives Fatty relief as does controlled exercise .

I wonder if perhaps they would just inject on a whim then perhaps and see what happens. She definitely gets more sticky when out of work.

 

[Goldenstar]

ASk them mine will because I say just say what I will and won’t pay for .

 

[Ellietotz]

ASk them mine will because I say just say what I will and won’t pay for .

On the basis that we injected the sacroiliac joint already, xrayed the spine, scanned hind suspensories and xrayed hind legs up to the hock and only found a small bone spur in the left hock, would it be silly to medicate the stifles and not say the hocks for example? I suppose in my mind I'm thinking that I'm doing it on a whim and whether I should be locating it to somewhere else instead!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Indeed, if you start medicating broken horses where do you stop?

You could strike lucky first time, or maybe never strike lucky no matter how many more joints you decide to get medicated.

Is she a comfortable pasture ornament as she is now?

 

[Ellietotz]

Indeed, if you start medicating broken horses where do you stop?

You could strike lucky first time, or maybe never strike lucky no matter how many more joints you decide to get medicated.

Is she a comfortable pasture ornament as she is now?

They were my thoughts exactly. It would be on a pure whim based on the fact we never found anything else and it was the last hind end thing to check.

Yes, she has always seemed comfortable in the field and seemingly happy when she was ridden to be fair. Other than her way of going, there was no bad behaviour like bucking, rearing, napping etc or reluctance to be ridden. She was always seemingly happy plopping about, always off the leg, and happy enough doing the same mooching around the field. She is a bit stiffer behind I think now she isn't blowing the cobwebs out under saddle and I can't run long enough for her to trot more lol! So I just need to get fitter and I don't want to overdo the lunging. Other than this though, she is pretty much the same as she always has been.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Well, there was the spooking that you posted about that led to you finally retiring her?

 

[Ellietotz]

Well, there was the spooking that you posted about that led to you finally retiring her?

Yes but she can be spooky in hand as well when she isn't hiding behind me that I've found out since stopping riding, she's always been a fairly nervy horse out of her comfort zone although she is loving living with donkeys! The spooking stopped previously with Topspec Calmer (which she isn't on now and not something I wanted to resort to) but has actually gotten better in hand now she is on a gut supplement as I was looking at going down the gut biome route though this seems to have done the trick in that sense. So the spooking was put down to potential ridden pain at the time but I think it was just a separate issue and the retirement is due to her way of going really.

 

[ester]

how come you are lunging her?

 

[AandK]

If she’s comfortable just being a horse in the field, why does she need walking/lunging and possible medication?