Still having catching drama - now in a pen

[Jinx94]

This week seemed like things might have been starting to improve, but today it came to a bit of a head.

He ended up being caught over the gate when he was being nosy about a horse being hand grazed. I took him into the round pen just to do a bit of catching and releasing. Big mistake, then couldn't get hold of him.

Made him work for at least an hour, even when he was pretty much on his knees I still couldn't get near him. So he got left for a little bit whilst I had a chat with my yard owner. She doesn't need the heras for a month (ish) so we put up a pen next to his friends. Eventually got hold of him, put a long tag on his headcollar and he's now in there.

I've contacted a behaviourist and if he shows progress in the next month, fantastic, I'll find livery with small individual turn out. My YO gently suggested that if no improvement is shown, the behaviourist can't help and second opinion is the same, I may need to think seriously about his future.

I feel horrendous, I think I agree with her. How can I provide appropriate care to a horse I can't catch for the farrier/vet? What can I do if he gets injured? He's started turning his bum on us and threatening to kick, and in the pen today I felt extremely uncomfortable with the situation. He worries my YOs and the groom, and I don't blame them!

Am I as awful an owner as I feel?

 

[windand rain]

Did you work him until he let you or he came to you or is he still in the pen

 

[Jinx94]

He wouldn't come to me, I eventually got close enough to clip on and promptly got dragged a few feet before he stopped and I could lead him.

It's ridiculous, once out of the field he's great to lead and he is good to handle other than catching.

 

[be positive]

I haven't followed his history but thought you had had him since a foal, backed him and were riding him, when it all went wrong was there an incident that made him so untrusting, possibly something you are unaware of as it is very rare for a once easy horse to suddenly go totally feral, have you had his eyes checked?

 

[windand rain]

Dont know if it will work with him but have you tried putting a headcollar on him once you have got him and putting a slightly bigger one on and off about 50 times while holding him on a longish lead so he can move away but not get free

 

[moosea]

My YO gently suggested that if no improvement is shown, the behaviourist can't help and second opinion is the same, I may need to think seriously about his future.

I feel horrendous, I think I agree with her. How can I provide appropriate care to a horse I can't catch for the farrier/vet? What can I do if he gets injured? He's started turning his bum on us and threatening to kick, and in the pen today I felt extremely uncomfortable with the situation. He worries my YOs and the groom, and I don't blame them!

I'm assuming that you are not considering PTS over a catching issue?

What have you tried so far?

How big is the current pen?

How long can you use the pen for?

How much time can you or are you willing to, invest into fixing this?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would be extremely suspicious of YO motives, bearing in mind that this all seemed to start over being brought in for the farrier - or rather not being brought in as the groom couldn't catch him. I would want to know what actually happened that day. I would not be confident that I would ever find out though. I think a yard move would be in order, personally.

 

[tankgirl1]

You finally caught him and then put him in the round pen? And 'worked' him? I can understand why he is being difficult

 

[tankgirl1]

Individual turnout is not the answer either, that will most likely just make him more anxious and worried?!

 

[TPO]

I'm the first to say that there are worse fates for an animal than to be peacefully pts but jeez this isn't half a leap!!

You need to get someone experienced in to help you. It doesn't necessarily have to be a behaviourist; I'd expect most experienced equestrians to be able to get a handle on this situation.

In the nicest possible way something isn't been done right if after an hour in a pen 1) you still can't get near him and 2) he's on his knees. You need to get help asap as that is not how to train a horse or "fix" an uncatchable.

Do you have or know of someone that you can book in with asap?

I dont mean to overstep the mark but I think you should also enlist help with your new youngster. I could be wrong but I believe an experienced forum user has one of the same breeding and that it's perhaps been alluded to that those lines could be sensitive.

 

[Jinx94]

I haven't followed his history but thought you had had him since a foal, backed him and were riding him, when it all went wrong was there an incident that made him so untrusting, possibly something you are unaware of as it is very rare for a once easy horse to suddenly go totally feral, have you had his eyes checked?

It had all been going really well. He's had a few stints of field rest over the past year for various reasons, but has always been good as gold. Mid Feb I was at uni for a few days (weekend blocks every couple of months), I was told that the yard tried to catch him for the farrier but couldn't. When he wouldn't be caught, between two of them they got him into a smaller space but as he was threatening to jump out/boot them/barge through them, it was deemed to be safer to cut their losses. On the occasions that I've managed to catch him, he's been checked thoroughly and nothing has concerned me about his eyes, but that's a really good idea. Not sure how it will go, but might as well give it a go!

Dont know if it will work with him but have you tried putting a headcollar on him once you have got him and putting a slightly bigger one on and off about 50 times while holding him on a longish lead so he can move away but not get free

Will definitely try it. The issue seems to be more on the approach/clipping on. He hasn't been without a headcollar in the field as right now I don't trust him.

I'm assuming that you are not considering PTS over a catching issue?

What have you tried so far?

How big is the current pen?

How long can you use the pen for?

How much time can you or are you willing to, invest into fixing this?

Over a catching issue? No. Over a horse that I'm pretty confident would still refuse to be caught even if it broke a leg? If I can't find a solution, yes.

He is not food motivated, treats don't work, feed scoop is a monster. Have spent hours "walking him down", and even longer just being in the field without putting pressure on. Make him work until he realises it's easier to be caught? Still won't be caught. Once something has worked once, it doesn't seem to work again.

Heras pen is 2 x 3 panels. I have this pen for up to a month. If he shows any sign of progress, no matter how small, I'll either purchase more fencing, or somehow get him moved to another yard.

I would love to say that I will invest every spare minute into sorting this, the reality is that I will spend as much time as I can mentally cope with.

I would be extremely suspicious of YO motives, bearing in mind that this all seemed to start over being brought in for the farrier - or rather not being brought in as the groom couldn't catch him. I would want to know what actually happened that day. I would not be confident that I would ever find out though. I think a yard move would be in order, personally.

I think you're right, I'm also extremely concerned about someone getting injured in the process. If there's a sliver of a chance I can get him on a box and to another yard, I'll do it.

You finally caught him and then put him in the round pen? And 'worked' him? I can understand why he is being difficult

I put him into the round pen to do some catch and release, the intention was not to work him. The "work" came in when he would then not be caught.

I'm the first to say that there are worse fates for an animal than to be peacefully pts but jeez this isn't half a leap!!

You need to get someone experienced in to help you. It doesn't necessarily have to be a behaviourist; I'd expect most experienced equestrians to be able to get a handle on this situation.

In the nicest possible way something isn't been done right if after an hour in a pen 1) you still can't get near him and 2) he's on his knees. You need to get help asap as that is not how to train a horse or "fix" an uncatchable.

Do you have or know of someone that you can book in with asap?

I dont mean to overstep the mark but I think you should also enlist help with your new youngster. I could be wrong but I believe an experienced forum user has one of the same breeding and that it's perhaps been alluded to that those lines could be sensitive.

It's an absolute last resort.

I am getting help, I am desperately hoping that someone can give me the tools I need to fix this and stop it from happening again. If the first can't help, I'll find another. I want to fix this. But if I can't, is it fair to pass him on to someone that sees him as a nice little money maker if they can sort the issue? What if he ends up getting passed around? How is that fair on him? He's a pony, might end up with a kid, what if they get injured?

My new youngster is a whole different kettle of fish. If help is needed at any point, I'll be asking for it. The way I dealt with the situation today clearly did not work, and it is not something I would normally do. Ever.

 

[SusieT]

In pen, feed daily, pet him when he comes, attach rope, unattach, baby steps- no forcing of anything until he learns people bring foood, people do nice things like bring food -simple.

 

[SnowandSunshine]

Jinx94 i'm sorry I have no helpful advice but just wanted to say I get it. It's not as simple as feed every day, be nice to him etc. My pony did 3 weeks refusing to be caught, walked him down for hours, wore him out, sat quietly, behaviourist, fed him, penned him, drugged him. It was only when he got laminitis (mid winter) that he finally let us catch him. And he loves people, cuddles etc.

 

[SusieT]

It is just that simple. When that doesnt work is when somone rushes in to 'grab; quickly or changes tactics -it needs solidly followed in a small area- if food only comes from people it works, not so handy if in a field of grass etc

 

[Mule]

I wouldn't try to catch him again until the behaviourist comes out. Just bring him a bucket of food, put it down, then walk away. Sit down in his field and ignore him for 20 mins then leave. He will show curiosity after a while, but if he comes right up to you still ignore him.
Keep doing this daily until the behaviourist comes out to assess him. Forcing it will strengthen his aversion to being caught.

 

[SnowandSunshine]

Ok so perhaps that works if they're so hungry they're desperate. But at some point they have to go back in a field of grass unless you intend to keep them stabled or in a grass free pen for the rest of their days?

 

[HappyHollyDays]

While you have him in the pen contact Richard Maxwell and if he is free book him. If he can't resolve the issue you really have a problem.

 

[Red-1]

I would not make any hasty decisions right now, you are feeling low and perhaps can't see the bigger picture.

I can't see how a horse is on its knees from catching, unless you are casing him round and round? I think I replied earlier, but it could have been another thread, it is about being there and taking pressure off as soon as they look at you, or flick an ear at you, look towards you, slow down...

It should be walking or slowing down, not something that has a horse on its knees.

I am another who says not to try to catch the horse until you have help. If the horse was on his knees, felt threatened enough to want to kick or jump and finds that if he fights you for an hour then you will go away, then you are on a hiding to nothing. I would stop right now.

As for PTS, I can't understand how you would have a horse that was previously good, had an experience that was not good when you were not there, is still at the yard where the bad experience took place, and now has a bundle of more bad experiences, and you think he won't learn to be caught?

I have dealt with a stack of won't catch, won't load, won't mount etc etc and know that when you, the owner, are in the throes of the issue that there seems no way out. It sounds like he is only a danger when he feels pressure that he doesn't know how to stop, feels trapped and has to defend himself.

I would indeed get professional help, yes someone like Richard Maxwell.

 

[windand rain]

There is a let him catch you process but I think you have probably got passed that. I still think repeat doing and undoing what it is that he doesnt like will set it in his mind. The pen sounds not much bigger than a stable so he couldn't be left for long without getting into mischief so He probably does need to go in a stable for a while (coming from me that is a big suggestion as I hate stables), Simply going in, mucking out, feeding and not touching him may work my guess is someone has got frustrated by his not catching and thrown things at him, grabbed at him, or worse caught him and yanked him about in anger. PTS is a bit extreme so he has to learn you are not to be feared and that you don't care too much if he comes or not then he will be all over you like a rash. The ancient livery came with long unbalanced feet and several days later than expected because he wouldn't be caught for the farrier or to come. He is now a pocket pony he is so close to you he knocks you over in his clumsy enthusiasm for being with you. I would like a bit of personal space but at least now he has his feet trimmed every 6 weeks and I can catch him when I need to even to do the nasty bits. He does wear a headcollar all the time due to being head shy someone in his past has beaten him around the head (not his current owner she adores him)

 

[ycbm]

Ok so perhaps that works if they're so hungry they're desperate. But at some point they have to go back in a field of grass unless you intend to keep them stabled or in a grass free pen for the rest of their days?

Would there be anything wrong with that? A lot of horses happily live dry lotted or stabled. It seems a bit drastic to PTS a horse for not wanting to be caught.

 

[TPO]

A very mature reply OP.

There isn't one of us who has spent any time with horses who hasn't mucked up and regretted our actions with hindsight.

I'm guessing that in the pen you were trying to send him away to do (trade marked) "join up".

I remember a story from years ago when I was at an open day/demo at the RoR in Lancaster. I can't remember the woman's name but it was whoever was in charge of ror and running that centre. She had been called as a professional witness to an animal cruelty prosecution. The person on trial had bought a "difficult" exracer and had decided to do join up so made a pen and set about sending the horse out on a circle one morning. This horse apparently wasn't playing ball and "refused" to join up (tm). Owner took to the internet and was told to keep going; no water no breaks. She however returned to the house for her lunch, dinner and drinks when hot. This "stubborn" horse refused to join up so was driven away back on the circles. That same horse died of heat exhaustion that very day.

Now in no way at all am I saying you behaved in this way OP but my point is that this "join up" while simple isn't easy. I don't believe for 1 minute that the horse that died didnt offer any signs of what they refer to as join up (tm) or look for the release which clearly was not forthcoming. Sometimes these signs are so subtle in some horses that they can be very easy to miss and continue on without acknowledging. That then leaves a very confused horse with literally no idea what to do.

I have issues with Monty Robert's and his methods (& in particular one of his qualified "trainers") but I'm sure he couldn't care less! However if that is the path you are looking to go down then there is a very small segment at the start of one of the episodes of this series of Omega Equine Academy on Horse and Country TV that may be of use. They have Kelly Marks in doing a piece and the contestants all do join up in a very calm and slow manner in the round pen with their horses. If you're a visual learner that might help give you an idea of what to look for without the endless circling.

I'm a big fan of Richard Maxwell so echo the sentiments above. If you can afford him and are in the right area then it would be worth paying once for him than maybe a few times for other trainers. He has YouTube videos that might help too and I'm a fan of his books. The Young Horse book and Unlock your Horse's Talent in 20mins a day might be the most applicable for this.

Before you do anything with this horse take a deep breath and try to be relaxed around him. Dont go into his space ready worked up that you're not going to be able to catch him or rushing ahead with your thoughts. As per your previous thread hes fine and doesn't need urgently caught for any time of vet treatment etc. Dont beat yourself up, horses can make us all feel.pretty useless at times. You've got a plan to get a person in to help and this will be a fixable issue so dont let your mind wander on down any less positive paths.

Good luck OP and keep us posted

 

[D66]

my guess is someone has got frustrated by his not catching and thrown things at him, grabbed at him, or worse caught him and yanked him about in anger.

^^^ this - and the person who did it is probably still at the yard. I don't think you will ever find out the truth about what happened though.
Fork out for Richard Maxwell or Michael Peace and save yourself money in the long run.

and dont try to catch the horse until you have some help - what you are doing is making things worse.

eta TPO has just said it much more eloquently.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Has he always been frightened of a feed scoop?

 

[indie1282]

Has he always been frightened of a feed scoop?

If not then I suspect he either got it thrown at him or hit with it when the yard couldn't catch him....

 

[JJS]

This may sound harsh, but I think you need to stop and take a long, hard look at yourself, OP. You have said, over and over, that you don't have time to walk him down, and at no point have you made any real effort to do so. With this in mind, you've still gone out and bought a youngster, giving you even less time to work with the horse you have. That's on you, not him.

While I fully agree there are instances where PTS is absolutely the right course of action, I don't for a second believe this is one of them. It's time to completely take the pressure off and make him remember how nice it is to be around you. Until you have professional help, forget anything to do with catching. I've had seven horses that I've either owned or loaned over the years, and I haven't had a problem with one of them, despite Six coming to me as a horse who must be kept on individual turnout in a tiny area or was reputedly uncatchable.

I think the reason for that is simple: I always make an effort to spend plenty of quality time with my horses outside of working and riding them. That means they associate me with nice things, and as a result, the only issue I've ever had with Six was when we started syringing his Prascend. He made it clear that he wouldn't be caught if that was the end result, so we found another way to give it to him. If I hadn't owned him for years at that point, and didn't know there was a clear causative link, I might have thought he'd suddenly gone feral too.

Like Six, something has made Tristan not want to be caught - the crux of the problem for you is that you don't know what that is. The thing to do now, IMO, is to literally spend an hour a day sitting in the pen with him, reading a book and ignoring him. If he approaches, give him a scratch behind the ears. If he backs off, let him. The point is that every interaction with you in this instant needs to be a positive one. Don't push him, don't push yourself, as he'll almost certainly pick up on your frustration at not being able to catch him, and just try to make friends again.

 

[Mule]

I also find it really important to just sit down near them without expecting anything of them, not even grooming them.
I find if you only spend time with them when you want to do something with them, they then don't want to spend time with you. It's like they only associate you with work.

 

[DD]

just take him a bucket feed give it too him and walk away. when he accepts this try him with a smaller and smaller container ubtil hes eating treats out of your hand. get him to follow you to the stable then give him a treat and get a leadcrope round his neck give him a treat then a headcollar on give him a treat. take many weeks over this there is no rush . he will eventually identify having aheadcollar on with being fed. then put headcollar on and off on and off many many times always rewardsing him with food. if it all takes 6 months or more then so be it. but I expect it will me much quicker than this. then headcollar on and let him go . so he doesny accociate being caught with work. it all takes patience and time and lots of bribery.

 

[ester]

The chances are that something happened while you were away, that is not his fault.

 

[Mule]

The chances are that something happened while you were away, that is not his fault.

Unfortunately it really does sound like this is the case. You weren't to know that something like this could happen @ jinx, so don't beat yourself up about it.

Unfortunately whatever happened has happened. Just think to yourself that you will change things for the better. None of these things are unfixable.

 

[Mule]

Oops @ester, I meant to write that post to the op, I somehow quoted you instead.