still livid - a liability question

dwi

dwi

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For those of you who read my earlier post we now know who was letting my horse out. Apparently its too much effort to bolt it after you, putting it to should be enough. She let Daisy out again on Saturday when I wasn't there and in her really rubbish attempts to catch Daisy again Daisy kicked out at her and YO although no-one actually got kicked

I warned YO that Daisy sometimes kicked out when you were trying to catch her before we moved to the yard and she said that it wasn't a problem. Now, because of said women's ineptitude Daisy has been labelled "most danegerous horse they have ever seen" and "shouldn't be allowed on the yard". Daisy wouldn't have been in a position to kick anyone if she was still in her field. With the exception of one good friend no-one is now talking to me, just bitching in corners.

I really don't see how I am the bad one in this. I was completely open with YO that she might kick before I moved to the yard. Somehow not a bad word can be said about woman that insisted on leaving gate open knowing that Daisy was escaping through it.

Aside from this being a rant does anyone know who is liable if Daisy kicks someone when they let her out of the field? Is it YO or me?

I feel like I want to put a sign on her stable saying that under no circumstances should anyone other than YO handle Daisy without my permission i.e. they should not bring her in from the field/try to catch her even if she is last out. I'm concerned that if I do that that 1) I'm admitting that I have a dangerous horse and am therefore liable 2) it looks bitchy and I don't want to sink to their level.

Sorry for long post but I'm at the end of my tether. YO is insisting that Daisy is brought in before other horses so that she is in her stable and cannot be a danger to anyone else when they bring theirs in and is threatening to hobble her. I don't want my horse hobbled.
 
Well, there was a case recently where a livery led their horse in a headcollar down the road it kicked a car and the YO was liable. Don't ask me how, but they were.

So you could argue YO.

I would look for another yard.
 
that recent case where a horse kicked a child bringing her own horse in from the field will stand as "case law" and therefore the YO may well be held responsible and therefore YO is going to make a big issue of the 'dangers' of your horse so that the YO can (try to) avoid liability in the event of an accident.

personally I think it's down to the YO to make the fields and fencing such that no horse has to be led thru another horses field.

Could your horse work with no hind shoes ? I know this is sort of 'admitting' but I've got one on my yard that (used to) kick and is worked front shoes only and isn't a problem.

personally the fields sound disorganised for you and I'd move my horse
 
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Me or her overreacting?

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I meant the YO LOL. Our horses on the yard come in in a certain order, that doesn't mean any of them are dangerous, but some cope with being left behind better than others and we arrange the paddocks accordingly, which is what a responsible YO should be doing.
 
she doesn't have hind shoes on because she has lovely cob feet and they don't seem to need it.

We're now in a different field because only my friend was still willing to share with me so she can't be let out any more but its only short term. They all share summer grazing so she'll be back in together in a few months.

I really love my yard. It has amazing hacking and the RC is based there so I don't have to use transport. I was very close to giving my notice on Sunday morning because I was really upset at the way YO has handled the situation but there are bitchy people at every yard. Providing I'm not likely to get sued because of someone else's incompetence I would rather grit my teeth and rise above the bitchiness.
 
Yes the YO is responsible for any injuries on her land which is why she should have at least Pli (unless proven that the injured party was etc. etc). Perhaps you could try to ease the situation by talking to the YO and explaining what you have told the forum and maybe putting a 'nice' notice on the board for the other liveries.
 
If you put a sign up, no matter what it says (in a joking or serious way) you are admitting liability.
My insurance company informed me of this after they did some searching around (I have a horse who might bite.. hard)
Any notice, whether it was 'come near me and lose your arm;' or even ' dont feed me i might nibble, ' means I accept liability.

Hobble indeed!
 
I completely understand what your feeling, Honey my mare can kick and its normally when she gets trapped in a corner of the field or if horses pester her in the field. Last summer one of the horses in her field got kicked badly and ended up with a bone damage to the stifle. everyone assumed it was Honey! Honey has no back shoes and there are 2 other horses in that field or do have back shoes and can like most others throw a kick to another. This lead to people at the yard not wantin to put their horses in our field as we needed another mare in the field. but no one did!
Now everything that happens on the yard is Honeys fault!!
Mum and I just ignore and since she has moved to a different stable on the yard, her behaviour has improved and is now becoming liked again by the people on the yard.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If you put a sign up, no matter what it says (in a joking or serious way) you are admitting liability.
My insurance company informed me of this after they did some searching around (I have a horse who might bite.. hard)
Any notice, whether it was 'come near me and lose your arm;' or even ' dont feed me i might nibble, ' means I accept liability.

Hobble indeed!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been quite interested in all this recently, as I wanted to get well signed hi viz tabards. I have one which says Learner rider for my eldest, but it now seems that if someone spooks his pony and it kicks out i am accepting liability!! It's crazy!
 
I know! we were advised not have 'young horse' tabards, any signs saying be careful around horses etc.
Only one we can have up is 'horse riding is a dangerous sport.. etc'

Mad world.. compo claims century!
 
Can I just put up a sign that says

"You may not handle my horse without my express permission"

If I don't give a reason then presumably I'm not admitting anything?
 
In your situation I would move yards ASAP, no way would I want my horse hobbled, that is a horrible thing to even suggest
shocked.gif
 
Re. the tabards, I have copied and pasted a post I made in response to a thread last week:



Ok, legally speaking, all these rumours about "young horse" tabards are total boll*cks!!
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There is strictly liability with horses - therefore you are liable whatever your horse does, and whatever you are wearing. You have insurance exactly for this reason - to pay out when you are liable for something.


Realistically your insurance company would just pay out for 99.9% of accidents and accept the (strict) liability without query. IF however, the driver in question had acted so badly on the road so as to constitute a criminal offence then I suppose you may attempt to reduce the compensation, wholly or in part, due to their own contributory negligence.


Having discussed the matter with a tort expert recently I asked him about the "young horse" tabards and his opinion was that they could only ever work in your favour, not be used against you, as you cannot be any more liable than you are for strict liability and so they can only be construed as you taking as much care as possible to prevent an accident.


I personally wear a "please pass wide and slow" one, so that those ignorant divs who wizz past you, no longer have "oooh, I didn't know you should slow down for horses" as an excuse.
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[ QUOTE ]
If you put a sign up, no matter what it says (in a joking or serious way) you are admitting liability.
My insurance company informed me of this after they did some searching around (I have a horse who might bite.. hard)
Any notice, whether it was 'come near me and lose your arm;' or even ' dont feed me i might nibble, ' means I accept liability.

[/ QUOTE ]They've not explained it very well then. Having warning signs doesn't mean you are admitting liability. To a degree it's academic if strict liability applies*, but even where liability depends on fault a warning sign isn't an admission of fault. Liability/fault would in that case depend on there being negligence, in layman's terms that harm was caused by a danger (eg. a horse that kicks) that you failed to take all reasonable precautions to prevent.

The relevance of the warning signs is not that they admit liability, but that they show that you are aware of a danger. And just having a sign up, in itself, is not enough to show that you have taken all reasonable precautions; more often than not you'd need to do more. That's where the idea that they admit liability comes from, but it's wrong to say that they do.

[*Am a lawyer, but not a PI/equine specialist so above is broad principles only. I know there are various instances where liability for harm caused by a horse is strict and fault is irrelevant, but I don't know how far this extends. ]
 


Eek, if you remove the hind shoes does it really mean that you are admitting liability that your horse is a kicker?
It's just that on my previous yard we had a mare who was a real pain in the arse re annoying other 2 mares in field and annoying 1 ended up with a stifle injury, as my mare and the other non-annoyig mare were leaving anyway and were in he process of being "roughed-off", we agreed at yms request, ( potty old man) to have our mares hinds off, no wonder owner of annoying/injured mare thought that she could claim "loss of use" from us. ! horse in each paddock now, still sour memories of shonky owner trying it on
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[ QUOTE ]
I completely understand what your feeling, Honey my mare can kick and its normally when she gets trapped in a corner of the field or if horses pester her in the field. Last summer one of the horses in her field got kicked badly and ended up with a bone damage to the stifle. everyone assumed it was Honey! Honey has no back shoes and there are 2 other horses in that field or do have back shoes and can like most others throw a kick to another. This lead to people at the yard not wantin to put their horses in our field as we needed another mare in the field. but no one did!
Now everything that happens on the yard is Honeys fault!!
Mum and I just ignore and since she has moved to a different stable on the yard, her behaviour has improved and is now becoming liked again by the people on the yard.

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Why hasn't your YO given this person their marching orders?

I really can't see why this should be a problem - if someone is not prepared to abide by the rules they go. Simple.
 
In answer to your question who whould be liable if she kicked out is if its like my situation I had a mare who had a accident the tendon on the back of the hock and moved to the side though she looked lame in her gait the vets said she would be fine for riding but best not to turn her out with others as risk of a kick as there was no tendon to protect the hock bone, The yard I was on could not accomade this so I moved yards and told them this was my needs they said it was fine as there was a paddock for her ,a few weeks later she was out with others by there staff and was crippled lame she had taken a kick, after lots of vet bills and having vertally to give the mare away as a broodmare I tried to see if there was anything I could do and baisically the answer was its your word against theres as theres nothing down in writing so I guess the same would apply, hope this helps.
 
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In answer to your question who whould be liable if she kicked out is if its like my situation

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No I don't think that it is. The strict liability of a loose horse that has escaped/been let out and kicks a person, is not the same as the negligence of the staff in the livery yard, who breached the terms of their contract with you, and were negligent in caring for your property. The circumstances and potential torts are quite different.
 
It's a tricky one, as my horse has been labelled dangerous as she can be evil in the stable, so the trouble makers on the yard made out she's so dangerous that they were to scared to go in the field when she was in there even through she's never done anything to any of them. She now has her own field and goes out with my friends horse, but because I just rose above it we came out of it much better off with the YO. The funny thing about this whole situation was that the ring leaders were fully qualified instructors that should have known better, and the route cause was that they were jealous because they were to scared to handle her. I just rose above it and they soon got bored and moved onto b**h about some else, but she'll never lose that reperation while she's here, but the yard owner has been really good about it all which helped a lot. Would the yard owner let you swap fields so people don't have to go near her?
 
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