Still too many people without High Viz

weebarney said:
Like I said its not the piece I read , dear lord! But there is clearly a time difference, or is the bhs making it up as well !
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No they say it may give three extra seconds now that figure does not strectch credibility where as seven seconds does , more than double the BHS figure.
Still interested in why I lack common sense.
 
weebarney said:
I would assume that it could be quantified by using a simulator or such like and the 'driver' pushing a button the second they see the object
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That is still quantifying the time to react rather than the time to see and the results come out very variable because there are so many other things that contribute to the time taken for a driver to react, even in very controlled conditions.
 
In all the years of being on a yard that I had to do road work on I never once worse high vis. Have recently moved to a yard with no road work and have just ordered high vis. Better late than never eh?
 
Golden star I don't know what you are trying to get at? If you don't believe the is a time difference even in good visibility then just carry on it makes no difference to me, unless of course my husband gets called to hose the road down
 
weebarney said:
I don't see the problem measuring the time of reaction as that is what the difference is between collision or no collision
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There isn't a problem with it. It just gives results that vary a lot because there are so many other variables in the human brain that cannot be controlled, so there are no hard and fast statistics available. It doesn't mean that you can't look at the results of such tests and say "by and large when someone is wearing high vis in such and such conditions drivers are able to take evasive action more quickly". But it does stop you being able to honestly quote definite figures. You'll note that on the bhs webpage you posted they say "can give vehicle drivers a valuable THREE seconds"
 
weebarney said:
Like I said its not the piece I read , dear lord! But there is clearly a time difference, or is the bhs making it up as well !
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weebarney said:
Golden star I don't know what you are trying to get at? If you don't believe the is a time difference even in good visibility then just carry on it makes no difference to me, unless of course my husband gets called to hose the road down
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Now that is a downright unpleasant comment and completely uncalled for .
Why should me thinking your seven second figure stretches credibility make me more likely to be hit by a car ?
 
I also agree that in bright sunlight on a lovely summers day hi viz should still be worn and would give drivers a second or 2 extra response time. Iv seen it with my own eyes since being a car driver hence why I won't hack without hi viz
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
Massive attitude change is needed, hurt somebody in a car, you never drive again.
Millions manage to drive their whole lives without hurting anybody.
Why should we pander to and make excuses for those who do?
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God knows this has probably been covered in the latter pages so apologies for being repetitive, but in answer to your question - because it is not always the driver's fault.

Your own full post describes very well that there are a multitude of different types of road user. I do agree that roads (although by necessity) have become biased towards motor vehicles but whatever the type of road user, you will always get idiots and you will always get people who aren't idiots but make mistakes.

This is tangential to the OP but it's not as black-and-white as you're making out.

I hope for your sake that you're never involved in an actual incident that spells this out. Not every car driver who hurts somebody is at fault. Not every car driver who hurts someone is drunk, texting, arguing, asleep or just not paying attention.

Sometimes it's the driver who is just unfortunate enough to be simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think there's a tendency among society to forget that and make assumptions. Please bear it in mind.
 
OldNag said:
When I come across riders /cyclists that don't make the effort to be visible and maximise chance if being seen, I just think "Darwin Award".....
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Couldn't agree more, I rather assume that natural selection will eventually ensure that the vast majority of riders will wear high viz!
 
I think you'll find that most insurance policies won't cover you either unless you've got at Least one piece of hi viz on under third party (mine states that I have to wear one piece on me and my horse has to have 2 pieces) I only realised this when I read the small print of my cover and I totally agree. I currently hack out in a reflective bridle, reflective exercise sheet, reflective breast plate, reflective brushing boots, reflective tabard, reflective whip, reflective hat band.. I get the mick taken out of me as I'm pretty much riding a yellow horse but at least I can be seen...
 
I wear hi viz & so do the horses, if we part company & they head home hopefully they will be seen.
I also had a near miss with a chinook helecoptor, I was riding a hot headed anglo arab & leading an ex race horse (also a hot head), both bays, we were off road, walking along side some trees. This huge helecoptor was flying fast & low & heading straight for us! But he must have seen us as he took avoiding action & then resumed his previous course.
I didn't always put it on the horses before that incident but now I make sure both me & the horses have a lot on (I use a mix of yellow, pink, orange & blue) which hopefully covers us for all conditions.
I don't care what people think, we often see low flying helecoptors & I want to give them every chance of seeing us from a reasonable distance. Without putting hi viz on the horses, from a distance I might just look like a walker, so I want the horses to be seen as well.
 
I only started driving last December and I was actually surprised by how much sooner I spot riders if they have at least one item of hi viz clothing on themselves or the horse. The sooner I see horses the more time I have to make sure I pass them appropriately, which for a learner driver is quite nerve racking. I just don't see any valid argument against making yourself as easy to spot as possible. No, maybe it won't stop an accident, but it is certainly helpful when making sure that drivers spot us easily, and have enough time to slow down and make sure they pass us appropriately. Put it this way, we expect drivers to pass us in a responsible fashion, so don't we owe it to them to make ourselves as visible as possible?
 
JFTD said:
Good lord, who rattled some of your cages - so much uncalled for rudeness, namecalling and general childishness! (Not to mention the plucking of facts from thin air!)



Most sensible thing I've seen on this thread, I'd say!
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Hear hear - I completely agree with this post. I can't believe how completely insulting and unpleasant some posters are being to PT. You may not agree with her - that's fine - but she is entitled to her view as you are to yours. Calling her names and insulting her intelligence is nothing more than bullying.

Wear if you want to, don't if you feel ok without it. I ski without a helmet - that's my choice, although I accept I would be safer with it. If I go off piste, I put it on, if I am trundling along on the piste I don't. It's not illegal and it is nothing to do with anyone else.

When driving my car I am often irritated when I see riders ambling along a busy road, two a breast holding up the traffic while they have a chat. Trot on and get out of the way and onto a side road as soon as you can - that is more likely to help you than a fluorescent bridle however Hi Viz you are. If you can't be certain of doing that safely - stay off the fast roads until you are confident that you can.

How about hacking back to the lorry after hunting ? Shall we all wear a hi viz hunting coat just in case ? At least the anti's could find us easily !
 
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pennyturner said:
I don't wear Hi Viz when hacking on a bright summers day.

1. I think it looks bloody aweful.
2. No amount of Hi Viz or lack of it changes the responsibility of a driver to drive safely.
3. Being told what to wear for whatever reason is a form of oppression and bullying.

If you disagree with 3. imagine if we applied the same thought to pedestrians: "Little old lady, I know that car was on the wrong side of the road when it ran you over, but your clothes just weren't day-glo enough, so it's your fault, and the driver is suing you for the damage to his fender."
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All I can say to this..... is that this is exactly what I was doing when someone drove into the back of my horse. It WAS a bright sunny day, and a driver came up behind us, going up a hill, and was blinded by the sun. He SHOULD have been going slower if he couldn't see where he was going (and patently couldn't), but he DIDN't. And ran straight into the back of my old boy.

Thank god that he was a good old cobby type, and what happened was that his vehicle (landrover fitted with bull bars) actually went into his backside and lifted him up the hill. He wasn't hurt apart from a six inch superficial gash to his buttock area, and thankfully, because he was such an old darling, he never seemed to be scared of traffic because of it, even traffic coming up behind.

But it took me a long time to get my confidence back.

So whilst I appreciate that people might not think they'll ever need hi viz because they hack out on a "bright summer's day", this is precisely when you WILL need it because of the bright sunshine (especially if filtering through trees) makes it very hard indeed to spot a dark colour like a horse.

And as for being told what to do? OK so we all have an independent spirit, BUT FFS can't people think of their horse's before deciding not to wear hi viz?

Personally I'd do anything, but anything, to avoid being in a situation again when I'm just not visible to a driver. OK so I appreciate accidents will happen, hi viz or not, BUT it always amazes me when this subject comes up on here that there's always someone that insists its their "right" to choose not to wear it.

OK fair enough. Don't wear it, go riding on the roads, and get hit, possibly lose your horse - and your life.

Your choice, just do it.
 
You can go around and around and around this debate but for me it always comes back to common sense.

I don't ride on the road in poor visibility, I wouldn't ride in it fall all the hi viz and flashing lights in England - because I don't trust the person in their car in a rush to pick their child up from school not to be driving too quickly and run into the back of it.

For me, poor visibility includes riding under lots of trees in bright sunshine, I love riding out in nice weather but it isn't to die for. I don't believe that Hi Viz gives you seven seconds additional reaction time and I don't see how that can even be quantified, more just a made up figure.
 
I've actually been really slack on wearing high viz since getting my new horse and moving to a new yard two months ago! We have such amazing hacking and very little road BUT that is no excuse. On my previous yard I was the main moaner to people not wearing high viz and now I find myself not wearing it for some stupid reason because if anything happened to my boy ... well i would never forgive myself.

I got to page two of this thread and saw the two pictures someone had posted and I can honestly say I still can't see the horse in the second pic (unless there isnt one or my screen is just dirty!) and its jolted me back into using my common sense and I will be wearing my high viz from now on each and everytime I hack out :o

I would never forgive myself if something happened to my beautiful boy and there was a chance I could have prevented it by wearing a high viz tabard.
 
I have been riding on the roads for over 50 year now and in that time two people that I knew where killed as a result of a collison with a car/van and 7 horses have been killed as a result of a collision with a car/van.

There is no doubt in my mind that over that peiod of time the number of vehicles on the roads has increased as has the power and speed of them.

There are many good drivers on the road but also a number of those that drive without due care or attention or even drive aggresively/dangerously.

Those in cars feel that they are protected by a metal cage and that they are not vulnerable. Unfortunately a car hitting a pedestrian, cyclist or horse at a speed of greater than 20 m.p.h. is likely to kill or seriously injure them. Most cars are driven at speeds well in excess of this.

Drivers seem to drive as if their only form of control of the vehicle is the steering wheel. they fail to take their foot off the accelerator when approaching a blind bend or on seeing a vulnerable road user.

Riding in Central London is a pure pleasure compared to the country lanes of the countryside as Central London has a speed limit of 30 m.p.h with some areas now with a 20 m.p.h. restriction and also there are numerous enforcement camers and far more police presence than in rural areas. There are also pavements so always the ability to move off the road in an emergency situation. Visibility is also far better with no high banks or hedges.

Wearing Hi-Viz will make horse riders more visible but not completely protect one as there will always be dangerous drivers.

I would suggest that far more off road routes are required including the legal option of using cycle tracks and the creation of a network of routes that can be used by horse riders in areas where horses are ridden. Unfortunately this will only be achieved with the support of every horse rider and they can simply do this by joining the BHS who are the only national organisation that represents horse and carriage drivers. They have volunteer access (bridleway) officers in almost every county of the U.K. as well as a fully manned accress (bridleway) officer at their H.Q. They all figt for greater off road riding routes and by joining the BHS your membership fee goes towards this continuous campaign.
Please see www.bhs.org.uk





Horseriders are therefore vulnerable road users.
 
All this thread has done is made me go and look at photos of myself and horse in hi viz and I have decided its not enough and have bought more plus mine home to wash as its gotten grubby. I do think it looks interesting to say the least but I wear it for my horse and for my family!
 
Run to earth there are quite a few study's into reaction times and amount of accidents in hi viz versus none. I posted a link to a bhs page with results from a study to reaction times.
 
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