Still too many people without High Viz

pennyturner said:
I don't wear Hi Viz when hacking on a bright summers day.

1. I think it looks bloody aweful.
2. No amount of Hi Viz or lack of it changes the responsibility of a driver to drive safely.
3. Being told what to wear for whatever reason is a form of oppression and bullying.

If you disagree with 3. imagine if we applied the same thought to pedestrians: "Little old lady, I know that car was on the wrong side of the road when it ran you over, but your clothes just weren't day-glo enough, so it's your fault, and the driver is suing you for the damage to his fender."
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You Can't Care Very Much for the Safety Your Horse or Pony when Riding out Then.....
And Before You Have a Go.... If You Can't Be ARSED For Your OWN Safety at LEAST Think of Your Horse/Pony's....

Too ANGRY for More....
 
pennyturner said:
If you believe everyone should have to wear hi-viz, do you also think women should wear the burka to prevent rape?
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Just back up to this a minute, because it’s not often things on this forum completely shock me (that’s sad in itself, I know).

The points in your first post have been sufficiently countered by others thus far (never mind extra bits like helping you be found if you get ditched – which I realise will be irrelevant because perhaps you have one of these 101% saintly horses that don’t put a toe out of line. Never mind, then – or things like the Highway Code and making yourself visible).

And incidentally, I don’t know what size your tractor is but aside from anything else, the last time I looked, a tractor heading towards me in any condition is a bit more quickly obvious compared with a horse or bike because the ones around us are just a tiny, wee little smidgen bigger.

Yes, there are far too many idiots out there for whom no safety measure on a horse/rider/driver would make a blind bit of difference. There are idiots on both sides. I don't think anyone would dispute that and I don't think anyone would actually suggest hi-vis creates some sort of forcefield of protection around you. It is small, easy things you can do to mitigate risk. The sun shining does not mean you can easily be seen - simple as that. Sorry to hammer this home again but hi-vis can give drivers an extra three seconds of reaction time – because the point is that yes, some will actually choose to react appropriately given the chance – and you’ll likely find people who are vocal about hi-vis will simply believe that’s no bad thing.

But your post quoted above?

Are you seriously trying to compare the discussion of the common sense reasons of wearing hi-vis to a perceived relationship between religious dress and sexual assault? Did you actually, genuinely, just attempt to make some kind of bizarre point there? All I can take from this is that you must be one of those people who believes women who wear short skirts, heels, whatever, are partly implicit when sexually attacked because ‘they were asking for it.’

Never mind the inaccuracy of the analogy, i.e. the implication that people supposing a burka will prevent rape can in any way equal people supposing hi-vis will prevent someone attacking vulnerable road users. Do you see how that is in no way the same thing?
 
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I'm the only person who wears a hi-viz tabard at my yard.
I think it's just as important as a hat - could really be the difference between an accident and not. Plus my insurance won't pay if I don't wear hi viz!
 
I don't always wear hi vis... My horse on the other hand, does. I care more about his safety than my own ;)
 
If someone was out hacking on a fairly nice day, through the woods in the pictures shown on here,with no hi vis on, and a car hit them, who would be to blame? The car driver who didnt see them because they were in the shade, or the rider, who didnt have hi vis on?
 
We ride out in bright, long sleeve running gear; mine's flo pink and stands out a lot! We've actually had motorists stop and tell us that a) they liked the tops and b) how well they saw us from far away!

Wearing hi-viz has become second nature as is putting my hat on, i feel completely bare without it. I dont see why you wouldnt wear it....

Just a side note; on a bright summers day flo pink/orange are better than yellow as the yellow hides in the suns glare.


Not wearing hi-viz is kind of like driving down a lit street at night without your lights on....I've seen this, they can see perfectly fine but other drivers haven't got a chance!
 
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Pennyturner - I assume you wear a hat when riding? Why wear that? They look pretty damn stupid really! ;-) Do you know as a kid and teenager and when I didn't know any better, I didn't ever wear high viz. However, having witnessed the aftermath of a horse being killed by a car I would like to give cat driverd as much chance as possible to see me thankyou. I just habe an equafleece gilet I wear all year as let's face it it's never that hot here. However you can get nice, fluorescent running type tops that do the job and are not bulky/flappy. It's surely common sense to want to be seen? Saying it's the driver's fault is all good and well but isn't much comfort when your horse and/or the rider is dead :-(
 
I still think that hitting anyone is the drivers fault but that some culpability lies with the rider who did not do everything they could to be seen. Because even though it would be the 'fault' of the driver I know that if I ever (god forbid) hit a horse it would be a complete accident based solely on not seeing them, I drive like miss daisy especially on country lanes as I have respect for my life and others! So the rider should accept a portion of the blame because what's a driver to do if they didn't see the rider?
 
pennyturner said:
I don't wear Hi Viz when hacking on a bright summers day.

1. I think it looks bloody aweful.
2. No amount of Hi Viz or lack of it changes the responsibility of a driver to drive safely.
3. Being told what to wear for whatever reason is a form of oppression and bullying.

If you disagree with 3. imagine if we applied the same thought to pedestrians: "Little old lady, I know that car was on the wrong side of the road when it ran you over, but your clothes just weren't day-glo enough, so it's your fault, and the driver is suing you for the damage to his fender."
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1. Not if you know how to work it ;) I think me and Ned look fab!
2. It won't, but it helps them see us earlier and more easily.
3. Surely it's obvious? Didn't you wear a uniform at school, or work? Even kids at my yard know it's better to be safe than sorry! They know it's not a protective bubble that will save them from harm, but it will hopefully (as I said above) help drivers see more quickly and easily!
 
I hate hi viz and I detest wearing it but I do so because my horse has no choice in it or not. If I get hit by a car that's my fault but I would never put my horse in that situation.
I have some bright 'matchy' that's used for hacking and all though not 'hi-viz' it is bloody bright!!
 
PennyTurner, don't you feel any responsibility towards the innocent drivers who may be involved in accidents due to the cavalier attitude of people like yourself?

How would you feel if you ruined someone else's life by causing an accident?

Personally, I couldn't live with with that and feel its my responsibility to protect myself, my horse AND any other road users.
 
Alphamare said:
My seatbelt analogy was not for the vs hi bus argument but against the idea of being 'told what to do'

I agree they don't prevent accidents and personally I feel people are too careless when driving, I love the metal spike idea.

Far too many idiots on the road to not wear hi viz. at least then they can't bleat 'but I didn't see you'!!
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It's not that attitude that bothers me, it's a piss poor excuse but people will always try and make excuses.

It's the attitude displayed here that if you do everything you can, accidents don't happen.
And somehow what a person does, affects what happens to them so there are deserving victims and not so deserving victims.

And as long as that attitude is around, people will carry on killing people with their cars and getting little more than a few years prison and a slightly longer suspension.

It feeds into the gestault that everything is somebody else's fault.
We see it every single day in the newspapers/courts.

One wants to wear high vis fine, but it ends there.
Somebody else doing different is no reflection on you or them whatsoever. Too might self righteous indignation on display.
 
Oh believe me, I know accidents do happen when wearing hi vis!! BUt when I had my accident, the Police told me that if I hadnt of been wearing hi vis, the driver could claim he didnt see me, and would have got an even lesser sentance than he did!!
 
pennyturner said:
Love the assumption that I don't drive... (because I must be, like, fick, yeah?!)

I drive cars, tractor, lorry and carriages. Don't tell me anything about drivers until you've taken out a horse drawn vehicle out on the road! The problem is not that they don't see you - it's how they react when they do.

The safety argument is the thin edge of the wedge by which we lose our freedoms. How about my antique carriage - do I need to paint that up like a canary? My tractor goes about the same speed. Am I to presume I need to repaint that also, or should both be banned from the road? Perhaps horses should be banned from the road too. We should only ride them on bridlepaths and in fields, right? Actually, they're pretty dangerous full stop. Why are they allowed at all?

I wear Hi Viz when the visibility is iffy. Just don't agree with it being mandated in broad daylight. Of course, I might DECIDE to wear it, if I thought the road conditions warranted it.
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Hello, I also have a tractor, a car and a horse. The tractor has so many lights that when you are ploughing at night it pretty much looks like daylight in the cab, you would have to be an idiot to hit it, and if you did I wouldn't be worried as the damage would be minimal. My car is also considerably more robust than any of the horses' legs, and I feel certain that in a collision I would be happier for my car to be written off than the horses...

I am vain and I didn't used to wear Hi Viz at all, I rarely ride on the roads anymore because there are far too many complete idiots about and I don't think it is safe. I fell off at home last year and really hurt myself. I called OH and it took him a long time to find me as I was in a field of sugar beet wearing a dark jacket, I just looked like a large lump of soil - it scared me.

benson21 said:
If someone was out hacking on a fairly nice day, through the woods in the pictures shown on here,with no hi vis on, and a car hit them, who would be to blame? The car driver who didnt see them because they were in the shade, or the rider, who didnt have hi vis on?
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Hi Viz does not make you invincible/above the law and my pet hate is people in a hi viz tabbard riding in the middle of the road/ on very busy roads/ on very windy country roads with very poor visibility/ people riding in very poor light. You still have a duty of care to your horse and other road users and I think sometimes people need to apply common sense before riding out in the dark with hi viz and a flashing light.

If a driver hits you I believe it wouldn't make a huge difference in their defence whether you are wearing hi viz or not, it is not a legal requirement, drivers should be driving to the road conditions and if it is a bright summer day and they cannot see what is in the side of the road horse/person/small child then they should drive appropriately and bear this in mind.
 
In the last couple of weeks I've had three different cars and a truck coming so fast around country lane bends that, even though I stopped as soon as I heard them coming, their brakes were still screeching trying to slow down to anything like an acceptable speed when they were almost level with me. They are turning me and my horse into nervous wrecks and hi-viz would have made flip all difference. ETA I wear hi viz but its pointless behind walls/hedges/etc.

Hi-viz is nice but lack of it isn't the main problem on the roads, the problem is the motorists' unacceptable driving.
 
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pennyturner said:
Love the assumption that I don't drive... (because I must be, like, fick, yeah?!)

I drive cars, tractor, lorry and carriages. Don't tell me anything about drivers until you've taken out a horse drawn vehicle out on the road! The problem is not that they don't see you - it's how they react when they do.

The safety argument is the thin edge of the wedge by which we lose our freedoms. How about my antique carriage - do I need to paint that up like a canary? My tractor goes about the same speed. Am I to presume I need to repaint that also, or should both be banned from the road? Perhaps horses should be banned from the road too. We should only ride them on bridlepaths and in fields, right? Actually, they're pretty dangerous full stop. Why are they allowed at all?

I wear Hi Viz when the visibility is iffy. Just don't agree with it being mandated in broad daylight. Of course, I might DECIDE to wear it, if I thought the road conditions warranted it.
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Knowing how to drive doesn't automatically make somebody Einstein, but your comments here and further up show that you're quite a few sandwiches short of a picnic. But you won't listen or change your attitude because, as you quite rightly say, you're "fick". Let's hope you're one of the lucky ones and don't have an accident because you weren't seen in time. I pity your horses, they don't deserve to be injured because a yellow sash was beneath your contempt.
 
Goldenstar said:
It is people's right not to use it it does look bloody awful it amazes me that horse clothing companies who can persuade people to spend the best part of £70 on a polo shirt have not turned their energy into producing some stuff that looks less c**p than 95% of what's on offer.
The cycle clothing manufactures are producing some funky fun nice looking stuff what's stopping the horse riders clothing people doing the same.
I hate this bulling attitude about this it turns more people off the cause than on .
The comparison with seat belts is not a good one you can compare a hat with a seat belt not hi viz which is all about being seen and does diddly squat to protect you in an accident .
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If cycling hi viz clothes are more stylish than the equestrian equivalent, what's to stop you wearing them? We rarely buy "horse riding tops" because they're vastly over priced and often badly fitting. And there is no need for specific tops for horseriding, except of course for competition use. A cycling top would do the job just as well, if you prefer them. Maybe if we horsey folk stopped paying £70 for a polo shirt that looks cr*p, the manufacturers would produce stylish clothing at a realistic price.

When we go out hacking we always try to make ourselves visible from space, even when we're boxing to off road hacks. We want to be visible from the air (so low flying aircraft have a chance to see us, and the air ambulance can spot us if the worst happened!) as well as from the road. So hi viz coats, tops or tabbards (depending on the weather), hat covers, armbands, exercise sheets, bridle parts, leg and tail bands etc. are the norm. We value our horses' lives far too much not to do all we can to protect them.

As has been mentioned, pink and orange hi viz are more effective than yellow - that's why Network Rail has adopted orange hi viz for work on the track (most of the p-way maintenance guys would probably object to pink ;) )
 
Arg, I don't think anyone thinks hi-viz will save them if they are hit!! It simply helps drivers see us earlier!

I agree that poor driving is the route of most problems, when I was nearly hit, I was in hi-viz and I doubt it would have made a difference if I wore a giant flashing sign above my head and on the horses back-end saying "WARNING!!! HORSE AND RIDER!!!"
She was on her phone, speeding and didn't even glance at me. If it hadn't been for Ned's fast reactions, I do wonder if we'd still be here.
With people like that, there is not much that can be done by us to help.

However, most people are glad that we use hi-viz and I certainly wouldn't go out without it, just in-case.

I nearly hit someone (I posted a thread about it) who was walking their black dog, they were in black clothes, only their eyes and bridge of their nose could be seen in the pitch black. I had my headlights on, but they looked like part of the bush until I was almost on them. That's not fair. I couldn't live with myself if I killed or even hurt someone.
 
pennyturner said:
I don't wear Hi Viz when hacking on a bright summers day.

1. I think it looks bloody aweful.
2. No amount of Hi Viz or lack of it changes the responsibility of a driver to drive safely.
3. Being told what to wear for whatever reason is a form of oppression and bullying.

If you disagree with 3. imagine if we applied the same thought to pedestrians: "Little old lady, I know that car was on the wrong side of the road when it ran you over, but your clothes just weren't day-glo enough, so it's your fault, and the driver is suing you for the damage to his fender."
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I am surprise at your view. Looks awful? How? Hi Viz does not change driver's responsibility to drive safely BUT it sure as hell means driver will SEE YOU! I am not telling u to wear it, nor was OP.
 
I have recently bought a pink hi-viz tabard. ( £6.00 so no financial excuse not to buy one) as it is too warm for my horses yellow hi-viz sheet. I am the only rider on my yard to wear one and I have only had one person say "like your hi-viz, very snazzy". Noone else has mentioned it, not even good friends who I hack with.
I had a think about it and I think they don't mention it because they are a little embarressed not to be wearing one themselves. I might be wrong but I think they know that they probably should wear one but like many, don't like the look or think nothing will happen to them.
I don't care what others think of me in my bright pink, it doesn't exactly go with my 'matchy matchy' but hey ho, at least I hack out in the knowledge that I am doing something to help protect my horse.
I don't particularly like the look of boots either (prefer the look of bandages) but when I go for a canter over the fields, she wears boots, so that she is protected!
It's not all about me!
I am lucky enough to have a horse that keeps me safe and looks after me, I think she deserves the same.
 
Its not just on the road, but also off road.

Hi-viz can help OTHERS find YOU if you get tipped off (perhaps knocked out) and you are not on a main track. We took over an hour to find a woman last summer whose horse came tearing past my yard without her.
Turned out horse had spooked, she had slipped sideways - then horse bogged off across hay meadows (bridleway goes alongside) and she then fell off in the 2ft high grass............... nowhere near any track/path or bridleway, horse then abandoned ship as his mother was not on board......

This was a very usally quiet, bomb-proof horse, safe for anyone....... :rolleyes:

Luckily, tho she was knocked out, she only broke her collarbone, perhaps if she had something on apart from 'camoflage' colours of olive T shirt & brown jodhs then we might have found her more soon :rolleyes:

I always wear Hi-vis, you never know when someone might need to see you - be it roads or tracks :)
 
swampdonkey said:
I have recently bought a pink hi-viz tabard. ( £6.00 so no financial excuse not to buy one) as it is too warm for my horses yellow hi-viz sheet. I am the only rider on my yard to wear one and I have only had one person say "like your hi-viz, very snazzy". Noone else has mentioned it, not even good friends who I hack with.
I had a think about it and I think they don't mention it because they are a little embarressed not to be wearing one themselves. I might be wrong but I think they know that they probably should wear one but like many, don't like the look or think nothing will happen to them.
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Sorry but it is this condecending "I am right you are wrong" type of attitude I dislike about road safety - quite how you have come to the conclusion that they haven't mentioned it because they are embarrassed baffles me - surely if that were the case they would have just bought a tabard.

I make my own decisions on road safety based on what I feel when I go outside that morning and in the road incidents I have been involved with hi viz, or the presence of it, would have made squat all difference to the outcome, sometimes it is about common sense, and I am really disliking the new wave of riders that seem to put hi viz on and think that this coupled with a legal right to ride on the road is all they need to ride on whichever road they wish.

I stopped riding on busy main roads four years ago after an accident. No amount of Hi Viz and sensible horses in the world would persuade me to take on certain routes these days. It might be other road users that are in the wrong, but I'd rather not put it to the test.
 
purplerain said:
As has been mentioned, pink and orange hi viz are more effective than yellow - that's why Network Rail has adopted orange hi viz for work on the track (most of the p-way maintenance guys would probably object to pink ;) )
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Orange hi viz doesn't blend with any other colours, yellow and pink can / can be confused with other colours. It's also more visible when it's not 100% clean (you don't stay sparkly digging up rail track ;) ).

Nah said:
I nearly hit someone (I posted a thread about it) who was walking their black dog, they were in black clothes, only their eyes and bridge of their nose could be seen in the pitch black. I had my headlights on, but they looked like part of the bush until I was almost on them. That's not fair. I couldn't live with myself if I killed or even hurt someone.
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I've been in the same boat. Virtually dark, with a guy walking a dog down a country lane. He was wearing an orange waistcoat, but nothing fluorescent / reflective. Filled me with dread, to be honest... just like the couple of occasions that I've found myself almost on top of bay horses with dark-clothed riders. I'm not a reckless driver, I'm aware of horses and I always slow down for them. The problem arises when you genuinely can't see them.
 
RunToEarth said:
Sorry but it is this condecending "I am right you are wrong" type of attitude I dislike about road safety


On this occasion I think I am right :)


I never tell anyone else they should wear hi-viz, I never preach, I understand as adults we all make our own choices but I think my horse would be seen before a horse without hi-viz and a rider with dark clothes.
I know my friends ( the ones I was talking about) and I think that my theory is probably close to the mark, obviously I cannot guarantee that but I will satisfy my own curiosity and talk to them about it. It may well be that they thought I looked a proper pillock! but I suspect that they also think hi-viz is sensible and that they have their own 'albeit misguided' opinions as to why they don't wear it.
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pennyturner said:
I don't wear Hi Viz when hacking on a bright summers day.

1. I think it looks bloody aweful.
2. No amount of Hi Viz or lack of it changes the responsibility of a driver to drive safely.
3. Being told what to wear for whatever reason is a form of oppression and bullying.

If you disagree with 3. imagine if we applied the same thought to pedestrians: "Little old lady, I know that car was on the wrong side of the road when it ran you over, but your clothes just weren't day-glo enough, so it's your fault, and the driver is suing you for the damage to his fender."
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1) No it isn't very nice looking but neither is your body smeared down the road.
2) Driver's do need you to be brightly dressed as the roads are a very dangerous place to be these days.
£) Perhaps you really do need to get educated about the roads and the dangers there. No one should be bullied you should do it for the respect of your horse.

pennyturner said:
If you believe everyone should have to wear hi-viz, do you also think women should wear the burka to prevent rape?
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Men should have respect for women, not get them covered from head to toe so you can only see their eyes, it doesn't have the same thing as wearing hi-viz or something bright.

pennyturner said:
Love the assumption that I don't drive... (because I must be, like, fick, yeah?!)

I drive cars, tractor, lorry and carriages. Don't tell me anything about drivers until you've taken out a horse drawn vehicle out on the road! The problem is not that they don't see you - it's how they react when they do.

The safety argument is the thin edge of the wedge by which we lose our freedoms. How about my antique carriage - do I need to paint that up like a canary? My tractor goes about the same speed. Am I to presume I need to repaint that also, or should both be banned from the road? Perhaps horses should be banned from the road too. We should only ride them on bridlepaths and in fields, right? Actually, they're pretty dangerous full stop. Why are they allowed at all?

I wear Hi Viz when the visibility is iffy. Just don't agree with it being mandated in broad daylight. Of course, I might DECIDE to wear it, if I thought the road conditions warranted it.
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I do think you are thick if you can't see the benefits of hi-viz. I also ride my horses and drive them down the road. Even when driving i wear hi-viz, my neihgbour also drives his horses and he has hi-viz on the back of his trap so people can see him on the roads. AS i say itis just too dangerous these days not to.
Hi-viz make you visible even on sunny days. I have watched a grey horse(white) dissappear in front of my eyes on a sunny day. They went into the shade of a few trees and they were impossible to see and i was only about 50 yards away from them!!!!
What about if you fall off your horse and injured on a bridlepath or in a woods. Your hi-viz could be the one thing that saves your live when it is that that the helicopter pilot(air ambulance) see's so they know where you are?
I do thin they should be compulsory and also riding hats should be. They do save lives, if you don't want to thin about it then think about your family and loved one's when you have been killed because the driver couldn't see you.
 
hollybear said:
PennyTurner, don't you feel any responsibility towards the innocent drivers who may be involved in accidents due to the cavalier attitude of people like yourself?

How would you feel if you ruined someone else's life by causing an accident?

Personally, I couldn't live with with that and feel its my responsibility to protect myself, my horse AND any other road users.
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Would not be pTs fault it would be the drivers , she might have done less than she could to protect herself but it's drivers responsiblity if a fast moving car hit a tractor moving down a visility restricted lane we don't blame the tractor for moving slowly.
 
hnmisty said:
I have started winding down the window and telling people that they'd be safer in hi viz.

How can you claim to love your horse but not do all you can to ensure it doesn't end up as an ornament on someone's car bonnet?
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I think I will start winding down the window and telling people that their postions are awful they are not secure in their balance and that if anything went wrong they would be a passenger at best and on the road at worse because that's what really winds me up people with bad positions and clearly too novice to be out on the road.
I think you ought to wear hi and only be on the road if you are pretty compentant but don't presume to lecture others.
 
All the arguments have been made but to me it's like this:

1. Wearing hi vis won't prevent all accidents but it's more likely to prevent an accident than not wearing hi vis is.
2. If someone hit my horse and then said "but I didn't see you" and I wasn't wearing hi vis I would never be able to forgive myself.

We decide to put our horses at risk by taking them on the road and so we owe it to them to do all we can to try and minimise the risk of an accident and to me that includes: not riding all over the road, not riding on busy and obviously dangerous roads (blind bends, etc), being alert to other road users (i.e. not on mobile phone or immersed in gossip) and wearing hi vis.

ETA: in light of Goldenstar's point I should probably also add "being a competent pilot" to the above list..
 
claribella said:
Yes I came home last night and there was this guy on a bay with a dark jumper on but no hi viz. Theres no point in not wearing for vanity sake. We have a guy around here who regularly rides out hacking with no hat. He wont listen when we say he should. Scary!
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So he rides without a hat. Big deal. He's taking a marginal incremental risk. His decision. How about if he gets a new, spooky nutter of a horse. Should he be allowed to ride it? He'd probably put a hat on, so perhaps that's OK.

Occasionally it might be I'm not wearing a hat - for example a while ago when I lent mine to a child who'd forgot theirs rather than abandon the ride. Risk is relative, and sometimes it's OK to choose the wind in your hair.
 
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