Still very confused about my barefoot horse! :-(

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Troyseph

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I'm so stuck, my trimmers been so pleased with our progress, but I'm having my trainer saying he needs fronts, because of the workload he's doing daily. I'm so so stuck, I've been doing more research all night, and I still don't know what's best, from what I'm gathering, if the farrier is a very good one, a good set of shoes should do the horse no harm, unlike a bad set of shoes, just like a bad barefoot trim right?

I really don't want to let my trimmer down by going to the "dark side" as he calls it, but were seeing such amazing progress with my trainer schooling him, I feel like I should take her advice, at least whilst he's there anyway and then see myself.

What would you do?
 
He is slightly footy yes, and isn't moving that well?

No he doesn't need to be barefoot moomin but when we made the change I did it after much deliberation and research, thinking it was the best for him x
 
Troyseph said:
He is slightly footy yes, and isn't moving that well?

No he doesn't need to be barefoot moomin but when we made the change I did it after much deliberation and research, thinking it was the best for him x
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I would pop the fronts on then! :)
 
There are people who will simply say shoe it, they feel that shoes are always the answer to any footiness that the horse is feeling but you have obviously researched it and gone into it with your eyes open so as I see it your options are to either try and find the cause of the footiness - most likely to be either diet or over enthusiastic trimming Or you can shoe him.

How long ago did you make the change and what is his management & feed regime? :)
 
Troyseph said:
He is slightly footy yes, and isn't moving that well?
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What would I do ? I'd make him comfortable. Sooo, options are -

Stop asking for that level of work, carry on with transitioning regime and walk in hand.

Or invest in hoof boots and see if that helps.

Or shoe and evaluate.

Are you happy that the trimmer is doing a good job or would your farrier have a look at the reasons why he is uncomfortable ?
 
How long have the shoes been off? I got told my horse was lame in dressage when I first took her shoes off, she moved awful, however after a couple of months , well probably a bit longer she just morphed into a fantastic mover like i've never seen before! I almost put the shoes back on but soooo glad i didnt now as she just floats on her naked feet :) and it is nice for me to know that her feet are allowed to expand naturally etc.

Of course if its been a long time and your horse is uncomfortable then I'd put them back on, but just my personal experience.
 
Troyseph said:
I'm so stuck, my trimmers been so pleased with our progress, but I'm having my trainer saying he needs fronts, because of the workload he's doing daily. I'm so so stuck, I've been doing more research all night, and I still don't know what's best, from what I'm gathering, if the farrier is a very good one, a good set of shoes should do the horse no harm, unlike a bad set of shoes, just like a bad barefoot trim right?

I really don't want to let my trimmer down by going to the "dark side" as he calls it, but were seeing such amazing progress with my trainer schooling him, I feel like I should take her advice, at least whilst he's there anyway and then see myself.

What would you do?
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I saw your original post and the question still stands. If your trainer was originally criticising the hinds and how they were trimmed - how will shoeing the fronts change this?

There are a also couple of points that need picking up here. It's not the work load - if you are increasing your horse's workload correctly the hooves will respond and change not only how fast they grow but also the density of horn. There are entire mounted police forces in the US where they are doing 6X8 hour shifts/week on concrete and tarmac and they routinely do this without shoes or boots. Although they do use boots for rehab and riots.

But this time of year there is every chance that if your horse is turning out they may just not be coping with the grass.

Shoes will mask the management problems that are causing your horse to struggle, but they won't fix them. What you do is your choice. I suggest, as I did before that you have a proper 3 way face to face discussion with your trimmer and trainer.
 
If you really want your horse barefoot I would find someone who doesn't say things like "going over to the dark side." I'm sorry but that doesn't sound like a professional to me.

It also seems to me boots are a necessary part of transition. Have you used those? I'm not a barefoot guru but can understand the necessity in this method.

Personally if I were to go barefoot then I would choose a farrier that is equally good at both, shoes and unshod. I don't want someone saying to me I'm going to the darkside. I want the mechanics explained and not a bunch of crap. Facts please, end of.

Good luck
Terri
 
I went though this with my lad for nearly a year, I did it whist I was pregnant and he was still sore when I got back on board after having my daughter! Shoes went back on and I haven't regretted it! The difference in the way he moved was massive, at the end if the day I believe some horses aren't suited to barefoot, they are bred to perform now not to survive in the wild :)
 
OP its almost sounding like you want someone on here to validate you putting shoes back on.....? Apologies if Ive got that wrong.

As I said on the previous thread increased workload is NOT the issue, the diet could be. Get yourself and your trimmer down to this yard for a meeting with the trainer to discuss things and see the horse yourself.

If it was mine and she had gone away sound etc and then I got a call saying they wanted to shoe her id be having a blinking fit :eek:
 
Ok, so apparently theres more to it...?

I agree that if the trainer thanks theres a problem with the hind feed then how on earth do they think shoeing just the fronts will help?

As has already been said if the horse went away sound and is now sore then something in its management has been changed, find that change, fix it and you should have your sound horse back again.
Sounds to me like you're under some pressure from the trainer to shoe the horse combined with what we were all told about 'horses needing shoes', only you can decide whats best for your horse and bending to peer pressure (from either camp) just to please them or to 'go with the flow' ultimately won't do your horse any good....
 
My Andalusian has been "unshod" for 3 years now. His feet are as hard as nails and my very good farrier started to hate me as he never needed his feet trimming either (he's a very cheap horse to run lol). Recently I'd been doing more work out on the roads and although he hasnt been "footy" I had a strange feeling he was trying to tell me something. My farrier came on sunday had a look and said his feet were worn down so we jointly made the decision to put fronts back on!

Something in his movement made me feel like he was telling me something and he was.

If he's telling you he needs his shoes back on by being footy then put them back on! Dont listen to theories about this that and the other, diet, supplements bla bla bla, listen to your horse!
 
I think increased work load is an issue for the horse actually. Asking a horse to work when its uncomfortable is unacceptable.

Either try hoof boots while you sort out its diet and transition or put shoes on and maintain its level of work. Shoes won't mask the problem if it enables the horse to keep fit and use energy. Shoes do not cause footiness if the problem is diet related.

If I see another horse ouching its way along while its owner hacks out because of some blind fashion that Barefoot Is Always Right And Shoes Are The Work Of The Devil, I'll scream.

(Incidentally, my horses are in work and happily unshod but not Barefoot.)
 
horserider said:
I think increased work load is an issue for the horse actually. Asking a horse to work when its uncomfortable is unacceptable.

Either try hoof boots while you sort out its diet and transition or put shoes on and maintain its level of work. Shoes won't mask the problem if it enables the horse to keep fit and use energy. Shoes do not cause footiness if the problem is diet related.

If I see another horse ouching its way along while its owner hacks out because of some blind fashion that Barefoot Is Always Right And Shoes Are The Work Of The Devil, I'll scream.

(Incidentally, my horses are in work and happily unshod but not Barefoot.)
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And if I see many more posts about driving nails into a footy horses hooves il scream as well! Its just a sop to the owners conscience its not actually solving the issue.

Whoopidoo the horse comes sound for a while, so owner feels better like theyve fixed the problem. Then comes the issue of the horse losing shoes, not performing right, problems with shoulders back caused by carrying itself differently to try to avoid the discomfort in its feets etc etc

Its not about grimly holding on to a principle, its about understanding WHY the horse is struggling in the first place and fixing that issue.

If Id had a horse sound for 3 yrs barefoot that went footy id want to know why! Id be doing everything in my power to fix that not taking the easy route or being brow beaten by a farrier who wants to earn more by coming to shoe every 6 weeks rather than to trim once in a blue moon.
 
why oh why do people who would in any other area not let their horses suffer feel it is acceptable to allow their horses to be in discomfort because of their ideals. If a horse is not moving right due to sore hooves then shoe it.

Not every horse can be unshod, just like not every person is comfy in high heals. And before anyone jumps down my throat I have competed on horse who coped beutifully unshod and thoses who have needed shoes all year round.

At present the Todmiester is unshod in the winter, and wears shoes in the summer often with studs as he gets panicky on wet/greasy grass and his stride shortens up considerably.
 
This thread makes a lot more sense when read alongside your previous
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=521568&page=2

I don't know why some people seem to think that the opinion of one professional somehow carries more weight than another (farrier/trimmer/trainer). You should follow the advice given before and get the three of them together for a professional discussion.

Certainly, if I'd got a horse that had been doing well barefoot, then that changed when it went to visit someone else, I'd be looking closely at what was being done differently. I would probably also put boots on for work rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater and shoving shoes back on. Lucypriory has given some useful pointers on what you need to look at here.
 
Todmiester said:
why oh why do people who would in any other area not let their horses suffer feel it is acceptable to allow their horses to be in discomfort because of their ideals. If a horse is not moving right due to sore hooves then shoe it.
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I believe in this instance that the horse has been sound without shoes for some time therefore for it to suddenly be sore says that there is a problem, if a shod horse went footy after being sound you wouldn't just give it bute and carry on, you'd investigate the cause...
 
Sorry I'll add a bit more.

My trainer said she wasn't happy with how rolled his back feet were, that's not the reason for putting fronts on, I worded it wrong in original post, her reasoning behind putting fronts on was to help him with being footy, and in her words, help him move better.

Now, he's always been footy since having his shoes off, I can't keep him off grass at home, only restrict it because we don't have stables,however she's keeping him off all day and only turning out at night, and he's only on haylage, so really he should be better over hers?!

I've asked my trimmer to come over have a look at him and have a conversation with my trainer but he said no....:(:o
 
Wow some people are being deliberately unhelpful I feel.

OP I can fully sympathise with you, I am now 12ish weeks into barefoot life and even though I was 100% never going to go back to shoes unless I had to I can see why people do.

I feel like we have just turned a corner though, my horse scored 7 for its paces in both dressage tests I did this weekend and felt the soundest she ever has :) I won't tell you the rest of the marks ;) lol 3 weeks ago my horse felt short infront, she was quite obviously sore but I made some changes which worked for us.

I started feeding a generic mineral suppliment as I couldn't get my hay analysed, I started feeding yeesac on the recommendation of someone on here I also reduced the grass intake and started soaking my hay. The result at the moment is a horse that is much more confident over stony terrain and at last some concavity to the front feet hurrahhh :D

I fully sympathise with how you are feeling but listen to your own head not your trainers. If your horse is not moving well at the moment she is probably a bit sore. You can school in hoof boots, I do! Grass is a real pain at this time of year, but even if you can't change much about your turnout (mine is to short for muzzles at the moment) you can reduce sugars by soaking hay.

It is all trial and error unfortunately but trying what others have succeeded with seems like a logical place to start :D
 
In that case you need a new trimmer! Seriously, my trimmer would be happy to talk to anyone about how she looks after my horses' hooves (and does!). If your trimmer isn't prepared to interact on a professional level with other professionals involved with your horse then it makes me wonder who on earth he is and what professional accreditation he has.
That said, you had a horse that was doing well barefoot, now he's temporarily away for some period of time and he isn't doing so well. Something has changed. People are suggesting measures that will completely change his hoofcare. You could make him comfortable with boots until you get him home and can take over his management again, so why not do that?
 
maggiesmum said:
I believe in this instance that the horse has been sound without shoes for some time therefore for it to suddenly be sore says that there is a problem, if a shod horse went footy after being sound you wouldn't just give it bute and carry on, you'd investigate the cause...
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Maggiesmum - don't want to derail the thread but where I am that is what most people do. There is a farrier with whom I have quite a few discussions - and he is getting quite despairing - he keeps advising people that their horses are showing signs of LGL (low grade laminitis) and that is precisely what they do. Ignore him, bute the horse and carry on.

Fairly frequently and often several times for the same horse, the LGL animal eventually goes very lame. They are kept in for days/weeks and sometimes months - off the grass and usually on soaked hay and eventually come sound. Only for the whole thing to be repeated next spring.
 
Right lets deal with one point at a time..

The trainers not happy with how rolled the back feet are - is that because they're not used to seeing bare feet? Or because of the way they've been trimmed? People that are only around shod horses will often only be used to seeing paddock trimmed bare feet.

If he's always been footy then clearly somethings not right - what is he fed other than grass? Haylage doesn't work for some horses and the first thing i'd change would be that for soaked hay. Overnight turnout is good though. :)

If the trimmer refuses to discuss your horses welfare with another professional i'd be looking for a new trimmer especially combined with the fact that the horse is still footy after 5 months, are they offering any advice on the footings at all??
 
LucyPriory said:
Maggiesmum - don't want to derail the thread but where I am that is what most people do. There is a farrier with whom I have quite a few discussions - and he is getting quite despairing - he keeps advising people that their horses are showing signs of LGL (low grade laminitis) and that is precisely what they do. Ignore him, bute the horse and carry on.

Fairly frequently and often several times for the same horse, the LGL animal eventually goes very lame. They are kept in for days/weeks and sometimes months - off the grass and usually on soaked hay and eventually come sound. Only for the whole thing to be repeated next spring.
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Totally shocking behaviour! :eek:
 
At home he's on just grass and haylage, I don't have a choice about the haylage at the min because he was out for a bit in group turnout and the owners of the land supply free haylage daily ( big Round bales) we put him in a smaller fenced off bit by himself jus grass and hay and he escaped , jumped the fencing:rolleyes: to get to the herd....:o
My trimmer is lovely and very helpful, with regard to management etc, but I'm surprised he wouldn't come have a chat with my trainer:o I didn't expect him to say no, I also haven't put boots on because my trimmer said his feet weren't the correct size etc yet for boots, and were 6 months into his barefoot journey.
 
Troyseph said:
At home he's on just grass and haylage, I don't have a choice about the haylage at the min because he was out for a bit in group turnout and the owners of the land supply free haylage daily ( big Round bales) we put him in a smaller fenced off bit by himself jus grass and hay and he escaped , jumped the fencing:rolleyes: to get to the herd....:o
My trimmer is lovely and very helpful, with regard to management etc, but I'm surprised he wouldn't come have a chat with my trainer:o I didn't expect him to say no, I also haven't put boots on because my trimmer said his feet weren't the correct size etc yet for boots, and were 6 months into his barefoot journey.
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Your trimmer may be lovely, but he's not being very professional. I'm sure Lucypriory will agree with me when I say that he should be prepared to have a discussion.

You said somewhere that you have had advice about diet. However, just grass and haylage is unlikely to be enough, particularly at this time of year.
 
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