Still very confused about my barefoot horse! :-(

[MerrySherryRider]

And if I see many more posts about driving nails into a footy horses hooves il scream as well! Its just a sop to the owners conscience its not actually solving the issue.

Whoopidoo the horse comes sound for a while, so owner feels better like theyve fixed the problem. Then comes the issue of the horse losing shoes, not performing right, problems with shoulders back caused by carrying itself differently to try to avoid the discomfort in its feets etc etc

Its not about grimly holding on to a principle, its about understanding WHY the horse is struggling in the first place and fixing that issue.

If Id had a horse sound for 3 yrs barefoot that went footy id want to know why! Id be doing everything in my power to fix that not taking the easy route or being brow beaten by a farrier who wants to earn more by coming to shoe every 6 weeks rather than to trim once in a blue moon.

I totally agree about understanding why the horse is struggling. I think thats what all good horse owners do already.
I also agree that its easier to see what going on with the hoof if its not shod but for heavens sake don't leave a horse to struggle. At least put boots on to keep the horse working.

I also find it offensive to accuse farriers of shoeing simply to earn more money. If a farrier's interest is in making money over horse welfare, then, find another one. I've never had a farrier like that thankfully even though they charge a fraction of the trimmers prices to trim a working horse.

I think the OP has the right approach. She asks questions and gathers information from all available sources before deciding on a course of action and remains open minded.

Extremism in adhering to one school of thought is not in horse's best interests. Many of us prefer our horses not to wear shoes but its not for everyone.

 

[LucyPriory]

Your trimmer may be lovely, but he's not being very professional. I'm sure Lucypriory will agree with me when I say that he should be prepared to have a discussion.

You said somewhere that you have had advice about diet. However, just grass and haylage is unlikely to be enough, particularly at this time of year.

I agree professionals should be prepared to talk to other professionals.

However we don't know the whole story do we and it may be that these two have locked horns before. It can be a pointless and depressing task - although it should still be attempted.

 

[AmyMay]

Put fronts on him and see how he goes. Your horse's comfort is the primary concern here, not grimly hanging on to a principle.

This.

 

[AmyMay]

I've asked my trimmer to come over have a look at him and have a conversation with my trainer but he said no....

I'd be ditching him pretty quick, I'm afraid.

 

[ThePony]

No offense, but your trimmer sounds bloomin' hard work, and rather unprofessional tbh.

I don't follow their reasoning for no boots - if the horse needs some protection then get some boots. It will make your horse comfortable and help the feet to strengthen, it will also get you some time to work out what is going wrong that might be causing your horse discomfort.

Could be the trim (I don't get the reasoning for some of the rather extreme rolling I see tbh) not suiting the horse, could be something dietry (are you feeding a mineral supplement?), or could be that the work load is increasing before the horse has developed the internal structures in teh foot to deal with this. Has the lameness only come on recently (in time with the grass coming through) or has it being going on for longer?

I absolutly agree that no horse should be put through discomfort in order for the owner to work to an ideal. However I disagree that shoeing is the only solution to this. There is clearly a problem with the horse that is causing it to be uncomfortable. Shoes will miraculously make a footy barefoot horse sound, but it doesn't mean you have fixed the underlying issues. Boots will also have the same miraculous effect but won't cover up the symptoms so you still have your helpful early warning sytem in place - utterly essential for keeping an eye on LGL as a possibility and reducing the probability of a sudden degeneration of the horses soundness.

I'd look hard at the diet (dive in here for a load of nerds keeping their horses sound and happy http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/forum8.php) , consider if the trim is suiting the horse (any difference in the trim while the horse was sound or lame?) and get some boots ordered asap. Thesaddleryshop is brilliant, check out their siing charts and how to measure pages. If it is all rather bewildering then give them a call - what they don't know isn't worth knowing!!

 

[Andalusianlover1]

If Id had a horse sound for 3 yrs barefoot that went footy id want to know why! Id be doing everything in my power to fix that not taking the easy route or being brow beaten by a farrier who wants to earn more by coming to shoe every 6 weeks rather than to trim once in a blue moon.

Tigertail. I hope your not referring to my comments with regards to front shoes being put on after 3 years unshod! Firstly my horse had shown no signs of being footy, I just felt all was not just 100% perfect. His feet were very worn down as I have increased his roadwork. His shoes will probably come off come next winter. I never have been and never will be a barefoot tree hugger, I only took his shoes off to try and save money in the first place and fortunately he coped well. I dont believe that expensive diets and supplements clap trap make a blind bit of difference. I decided on shoes not my farrier.

If I incorrectly assumed you were referring to my comments then I apologise profusely!

 

[Nocturnal]

why oh why do people who would in any other area not let their horses suffer feel it is acceptable to allow their horses to be in discomfort because of their ideals. If a horse is not moving right due to sore hooves then shoe it.

Not every horse can be unshod, just like not every person is comfy in high heals. And before anyone jumps down my throat I have competed on horse who coped beutifully unshod and thoses who have needed shoes all year round.

What an odd sort of mindset . Horses were not born with shoes; a horse's foot should be able to function normally without any pain, and without a shoe. I suppose humans have been shoeing horses for over a thousand years now, and that sort of history and mindset is hard to shift... almost like a religion. (Ironic that barefooters are the ones accused of cultism ).

I think the problem is a lack of understanding in horse owners, and farriers too, about the causes of sensitivity in a horse's foot. Often foot sensitivity is caused by disruption of the gut flora. This can have a negative effect not only on the hooves, but internal organs such as the liver and kidneys too. As such it is important to address. Shoeing will merely rob you of an important tool for gauging your horse's digestive health.

If it is not diet related, then it could be caused by weak structures in the hoof. These must be improved by steady work and stimulation within the horse's comfort. Hoof boots can be invaluable in this. Shoeing the foot will only weaken it further.

In your position, OP, I would consider whether your horse was getting correctly balanced minerals. I have not seen whether you feed any minerals? If not I would start with yea sacc to help digestion, and magnesium oxide. Then consider adding a supplement such as pro hoof, or the new forage plus supplement.

I agree that your trimmer sounds unhelpful; you need someone to support you, as it sounds like you're being pressurised. I would also consider hoof boots for exercise whilst your horse remains footy.

I know this probably sounds like an anti shoeing tirade, but it is frustrating when shoes are used to cover up problems, just as some people use bute to continue working lame horses. And even more frustrating when it is the barefooters accused of causing horses pain in the name of an ideal. The hypocrisy really gets to me .

 

[AmyMay]

Horses were not born with shoes; a horse's foot should be able to function normally without any pain, and without a shoe.

And this is what makes me so cross about barefoot evangelics.

Horses were not born with shoes on, however it is unreasonable to have an expectation that a horse should be able to work without them without acknowledging that some types of work simply do not lend themselves to barefoot.

Shoes are not used to cover up problems - but in most cases to enable the horse to do the job for which it is designed and aimed at.

 

[maggiesmum]

I don't want to take the thread OT but a barefoot diet doesn't have to be expensive and it makes a whole heap of difference - often the addition of minerals can mean the difference between a footy horse and a sound one that can move over any terrain.

 

[Nocturnal]

And this is what makes me so cross about barefoot evangelics.

Horses were not born with shoes on, however it is unreasonable to have an expectation that a horse should be able to work without them without acknowledging that some types of work simply do not lend themselves to barefoot.

Shoes are not used to cover up problems - but in most cases to enable the horse to do the job for which it is designed and aimed at.

Why would some types not lend themselves to barefoot? Which types, and in what way?

Horses haven't been designed, they have evolved over millions of years - for >50 million years the horse's foot have been evolving to cope with any terrain you could throw at it - providing it is living in the way it has evolved to live. This is the problem with keeping barefoot horses; providing them with diet and living conditions which they have evolved to cope with. Historically this has not been possible/has not been understood. Now it is possible in the vast majority of cases.

Unless you are jumping to a certain level on grass (and therefore need studs), or the horse has an underlying metabolic issue, it should be possible to keep a horse barefoot. Not everybody wants to, and that is up to the individual owners, but this dogmatic belief that it's somehow the horse's fault that it has to wear shoes is simply not true; it's almost always down to the owner.

 

[Erin]

but in most cases to enable the horse to do the job for which it is designed.

And what, pray tell, is a horse 'designed' to do?

 

[Moomin1]

Why would some types not lend themselves to barefoot? Which types, and in what way?

Horses haven't been designed, they have evolved over millions of years - for >50 million years the horse's foot have been evolving to cope with any terrain you could throw at it - providing it is living in the way it has evolved to live. This is the problem with keeping barefoot horses; providing them with diet and living conditions which they have evolved to cope with. Historically this has not been possible/has not been understood. Now it is possible in the vast majority of cases.

Unless you are jumping to a certain level on grass (and therefore need studs), or the horse has an underlying metabolic issue, it should be possible to keep a horse barefoot. Not everybody wants to, and that is up to the individual owners, but this dogmatic belief that it's somehow the horse's fault that it has to wear shoes is simply not true; it's almost always down to the owner.

Lovely theory, but unfortunately horses have been 'designed' by man in the respect of breeding for purpose, which has, just as it has in dogs, had it's negative effects.

 

[AmyMay]

And what, pray tell, is a horse 'designed' to do?

Though evolution and history 'work'. Whatever job you apply it to

 

[Nocturnal]

Lovely theory, but unfortunately horses have been 'designed' by man in the respect of breeding for purpose, which has, just as it has in dogs, had it's negative effects.

And no breeds have been so highly bred as the TB, right? Yet so many seem to successfully go barefoot. Just the other day I was cantering down a stony forest track on mine...

Amymay, I've heard your opinions on us 'barefoot evangelists' before, but I've never seen you answer the question:

Why would some types not lend themselves to barefoot? Which types, and in what way?

I'd really appreciate an answer, as it seems that opinions such as yours fly in the face of reason, but I'm sure there must be some logic behind your beliefs, not just rhetoric.

 

[Erin]

Lovely theory, but unfortunately horses have been 'designed' by man in the respect of breeding for purpose, which has, just as it has in dogs, had it's negative effects.

A few hundred years of selective horse breeding cannot change its base genetics that much - as has been proven time and time again with horses that 'would never cope without shoes' being successful and sound barefoot once manged correctly.

It is the management of horses that has had a negative effect, not the breeding.

Though evolution and history 'work'. Whatever job you apply it to

That doesn't make any sense! Nature did not design horses to do a 'job'.

 

[cptrayes]

so your horse was not footy when shod?

How would she know?

Unless she rides the horse across an area with stones on hard surface bigger than the depth of the shoe, it won't show.

If the shoe has cut down the blood supply to the foot far enough (shoes reduce blood supply to the foot, which is at least one reason why they grow slower with shoes on) then the amount of toxin getting from the gut to the laminae will be reduced, possibly to a level lower than will trigger footiness.

The danger with shoeing a footie horse is that footiness as a warning sign of health problems will not be noticed and the horse may instead go straight into full laminitis with "no warning". Even if laminitis does not occur, the gut toxins are causing problems to the liver that can result in other problems (severe sweet itch and tying up when given wormers were two in the case of a horse of mine).

 

[AmyMay]

The danger with shoeing a footie horse is that footiness as a warning sign of health problems will not be noticed and the horse may instead go straight into full laminitis with "no warning". Even if laminitis does not occur, the gut toxins are causing problems to the liver that can result in other problems (severe sweet itch and tying up when given wormers were two in the case of a horse of mine).

Rather alarmist don't you think?

And how often exactly does this happen?

 

[Moomin1]

And no breeds have been so highly bred as the TB, right? Yet so many seem to successfully go barefoot. Just the other day I was cantering down a stony forest track on mine...

Amymay, I've heard your opinions on us 'barefoot evangelists' before, but I've never seen you answer the question:

Why would some types not lend themselves to barefoot? Which types, and in what way?

I'd really appreciate an answer, as it seems that opinions such as yours fly in the face of reason, but I'm sure there must be some logic behind your beliefs, not just rhetoric.

...But we are talking about a horse that is 'footy' when it's barefoot and exercised - therefore barefoot is obviously causing a problem for this horse! And there are plenty of threads on here relating to barefoot horses that are experiencing lots of problems with health!

At the end of the day, as I said in a previous thread, if a horse is comfortable and sound barefoot then by all means go for it - I would to save money!! But if a horse is crippled and has even a few months of pain due to going barefoot, when it was perfectly healthy and sound with shoes on, then what the **** is the point?!! My old pony had shoes on all his life and yet lived to the age of 40 - I am sure he couldn't have been in too much bad health to have lived that long, so these 'toxins' and hidden effects of shoeing can't be all that bad!!

 

[Nocturnal]

Rather alarmist don't you think?

And how often exactly does this happen?

Ok, I guess as you keep ignoring me when I ask for your reasons I must be mistaken, and it is just rhetoric after all.

As for the above quote, I think laminitis is rife, especially with weather like this... I think a lot of people may be caught out this spring .

...But we are talking about a horse that is 'footy' when it's barefoot and exercised - therefore barefoot is obviously causing a problem for this horse! And there are plenty of threads on here relating to barefoot horses that are experiencing lots of problems with health!

At the end of the day, as I said in a previous thread, if a horse is comfortable and sound barefoot then by all means go for it - I would to save money!! But if a horse is crippled and has even a few months of pain due to going barefoot, when it was perfectly healthy and sound with shoes on, then what the **** is the point?!! My old pony had shoes on all his life and yet lived to the age of 40 - I am sure he couldn't have been in too much bad health to have lived that long, so these 'toxins' and hidden effects of shoeing can't be all that bad!!

Ah, but my rock crunching TB goes footy when fed certain feeds. It is not barefoot that is causing the problem, only allowing you to see a problem that is being caused by something else.

I'm sure you've heard of navicular disease, and know how prevelant it is. Many, many horses are not sound and healthy with shoes on, but because shoes mask many issues their owners do not realise there is a problem until a great deal of damage has been done.

 

[Moomin1]

Ok, I guess as you keep ignoring me when I ask for your reasons I must be mistaken, and it is just rhetoric after all.

As for the above quote, I think laminitis is rife, especially with weather like this... I think a lot of people may be caught out this spring .



Ah, but my rock crunching TB goes footy when fed certain feeds. It is not barefoot that is causing the problem, only allowing you to see a problem that is being caused by something else.

I'm sure you've heard of navicular disease, and know how prevelant it is. Many, many horses are not sound and healthy with shoes on, but because shoes mask many issues their owners do not realise there is a problem until a great deal of damage has been done.

I don't disagree - I think if a horse is able to go barefoot it is better to be as natural as possible. However, most horses these days don't live natural lives and never will. Many, many horses don't ever get navicular/laminitis and live to grand old ages despite being shod. Nobody is giving an explanation for that? I think the problem here is that people aren't willing to accept that each horse is unique and what works for one may cause untold damage to another.

Personally I will not have my mare unshod, because she has thin soles - and I couldn't give a monkeys whether it has been due to her always having shoes on - the fact is that she has, and she is a perfectly healthy horse in every other way, and 100% sound and solid with her shoes on. I see no reason at this stage to remove her shoes.

 

[cptrayes]

Rather alarmist don't you think?

And how often exactly does this happen?

Alarmist? No factual.

How often does it happen?

Every time that a shod horse which is in work, or regularly looked at while moving, goes down with laminitis.

If the horse was barefoot it would have gone footie first and the owner could have noticed and the diet could have been corrected before an acute attack.

 

[AmyMay]

Alarmist? No factual.

How often does it happen?

Every time that a shod horse which is in work, or regularly looked at while moving, goes down with laminitis.

So just to understand.

A footy horse that then has shoes put on to address this is likely to go down with laminitis??

 

[Moomin1]

Every time that a shod horse which is in work, or regularly looked at while moving, goes down with laminitis.

If the horse was barefoot it would have gone footie first and the diet corrected before an acute attack.

Not true I'm afraid in many cases - I have come across plenty of barefoot horses who have been fine one minute and crippled the next. Depends on the horse and how stoic they are. I agree that in some cases you may be able to have a bit more warning barefoot though.

 

[cptrayes]

So just to understand.

A footy horse that then has shoes put on to address this is likely to go down with laminitis??

If the horse was previously sound barefoot and it has gone footie due to changes in diet or developing metabolic illness, just so.

The reduction in blood supply may well stop it from happening completely if the horse is a low risk case, (and I believe that in many cases it does), but the risk is high of a crash later in the year if the diet is not addressed.

 

[cptrayes]

Not true I'm afraid in many cases - I have come across plenty of barefoot horses who have been fine one minute and crippled the next. Depends on the horse and how stoic they are. I agree that in some cases you may be able to have a bit more warning barefoot though.

I think it probably depends much more on how observant the owner is. How many people do you think do what I do, for example? Two miles from my home is a car park surfaced with very sharp and unlevel limestone. I take my horses to that car park on a regular basis and ride them across it. I can tell if they take one mis-step whether the grass has begun to affect them or not, and do something about it.

Call me anal if you like, but that's how I keep my horses fit to do what they do with no shoes on


I have no problem with owners who want to shoe, but shoeing a horse which was previously sound barefoot which has gone footie because of its diet is not, in my opinion, a very good reason to do it.

 

[AmyMay]

If the horse was previously sound barefoot and it has gone footie due to changes in diet or developing metabolic illness, just so.

What a load of rubbish.

 

[cptrayes]

What a load of rubbish.

Do you know much about laminitis Amymay? Are you aware that we have an epidemic of laminitis in this country in the last few years? Have you kept or do you keep an insulin resistant horse? Are any horses you keep or know closely both barefoot and grass sensitive? Do you own or know closely a barefoot laminitic who has been shod and barefoot? Do you actually know what you are talking about to tell me that what I have said is a load of rubbish? Can you drop the insults and actually argue your case as to why I am wrong, so we might all learn something by adult discussion?

Let's just repeat my argument that you call rubbish, as a start point and you can tell me why it is rubbish to say:

A horse which has previously been sound barefoot which goes footie due to spring grass can have its footiness disguised by shoes by suspending a sensitive sole higher than the stones it might encounter in its work. If the diet is not changed, there is a high probability that the continued production of toxins due to the ingestion of spring grass will, at some point, produce an acute laminitic attack.

 

[AmyMay]

cptrayes, I've been around horses long enough (barefoot and shod) to know that putting a shoe on a footy horse does not cause laminitis.

You are passionate about your 'craft' but you are alarmist, inaccurate and misleading - which is very unfair on the majority of readers on this forum (many of whom are total novices). It is also a shame, because much of what you post is very informative and interesting.

But you lack all credibility I'm afraid. And it's people like you that switch people like me off the whole barefoot discussion - despite my increasing interest in it (especially the feed related threads, which are fascinating).

 

[Erin]

cptrayes, I've been around horses long enough (barefoot and shod) to know that putting a shoe on a footy horse does not cause laminitis.
.

]

No one is saying that it does! Putting a shoe on a footy horse takes away your early warning signs, so more likely to hit full blown laminitis before the owner notices!

 

[Nocturnal]

I don't disagree - I think if a horse is able to go barefoot it is better to be as natural as possible. However, most horses these days don't live natural lives and never will. Many, many horses don't ever get navicular/laminitis and live to grand old ages despite being shod. Nobody is giving an explanation for that? I think the problem here is that people aren't willing to accept that each horse is unique and what works for one may cause untold damage to another.

Personally I will not have my mare unshod, because she has thin soles - and I couldn't give a monkeys whether it has been due to her always having shoes on - the fact is that she has, and she is a perfectly healthy horse in every other way, and 100% sound and solid with her shoes on. I see no reason at this stage to remove her shoes.

Fair enough, it's your call after all. If you ever change your mind and want to help your horse grow nice thick soles, we'll all be here to help.

However, I do not know many shod horses at all which have lived to a ripe old age and retired (or not!) sound without foot problems, or undetected digestive problems which would have caused footiness had they been unshod. Barefoot, if done right, should never cause untold damage to any horse. Or any damage at all.

cptrayes, I've been around horses long enough (barefoot and shod) to know that putting a shoe on a footy horse does not cause laminitis.

You are passionate about your 'craft' but you are alarmist, inaccurate and misleading - which is very unfair on the majority of readers on this forum (many of whom are total novices). It is also a shame, because much of what you post is very informative and interesting.

But you lack all credibility I'm afraid. And it's people like you that switch people like me off the whole barefoot discussion - despite my increasing interest in it (especially the feed related threads, which are fascinating).

With quotes such as 'what a load of rubbish' and your refusal to engage in a discussion and explain your views, I don't think it's fair to accuse cptrayes of lacking credibility.

Shoeing doesn't cause laminitis, it masks the major symptom of low grade laminitis, making it more likely that it will go undetected until it becomes an acute laminitic attack.

ETA: Shoeing does actually sometimes cause mechanical laminitis. It happened recently to a pony on my yard. But that I think is relatively uncommon.