Still very confused about my barefoot horse! :-(

Troyseph, I think you have asked too much of your horse far too soon. If you don't have the patience to to get his feet how he his happy to work then you should shoe and carry on with your schooling.

tbh, I think you have answered your own questions, made your mind up and it's useless everyone arguing on here because no-one has seen your horse.

6 months was still walking with boots on when hacking for us. We did SOME schooling in a paddock barefoot and walked in hand still on tarmac. Had a lesson once every two weeks in a rubber and sand school. Never would have dreamed of sending my boy away for schooling 6 months in of a transition, of a horse who had been shod 10 years previous.

It took about a year to be able to do normal RC activities including hunter trials and dressage.

Thing is, I knew it would take a long time and planned for it. It's not a miracle... it's rehab. (He was a laminitic with navicular, and now has a set of matching feet.)
 
amymay said:
cptrayes, I've been around horses long enough (barefoot and shod) to know that putting a shoe on a footy horse does not cause laminitis.
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I am sorry that I seem to have explained myself so badly that you thought that I was saying that putting shoes on a horse causes laminitis. That would of course be utter rubbish and of course it is not what I said.


What I am saying is that the horse would get laminitis (shod or unshod) if the diet was not changed. And in fact with some horses, the reduction in blood supply would be sufficient to stop the laminitis without a diet change. The shoes do not cause laminitis, they allow the owner/keeper to assume that all is well because the horse is no longer footie, and walk blindly into an acute laminitic attack, which they will later bemoan that they got "no warning" of.
 
cptrayes said:
I am sorry that I seem to have explained myself so badly that you thought that I was saying that putting shoes on a horse causes laminitis. That would of course be utter rubbish and of course it is not what I said.
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Then I apologise - I thought that was your response to my direct question.

And will bow out to allow my blood pressure to return to normal..............
 
Erin said:
]

No one is saying that it does! Putting a shoe on a footy horse takes away your early warning signs, so more likely to hit full blown laminitis before the owner notices!
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Exactly :rolleyes:
A horse on our yard (shod) had the farrier out for a new set, the horse was seemingly fine in shoes, had a new set fitted and came down with acute lami within days, due to concussion caused by shoeing (diagnosed by a vet)
The vet explained that because of his shoes the early warning signs were missed and the extra concussion caused by the latest shoeing had contributed significantly.
 
cptrayes said:
Do you know much about laminitis Amymay? Are you aware that we have an epidemic of laminitis in this country in the last few years? Have you kept or do you keep an insulin resistant horse? Are any horses you keep or know closely both barefoot and grass sensitive? Do you own or know closely a barefoot laminitic who has been shod and barefoot? Do you actually know what you are talking about to tell me that what I have said is a load of rubbish? Can you drop the insults and actually argue your case as to why I am wrong, so we might all learn something by adult discussion?
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Where is this epidemic ? Is it only prevailent amongst the barefoot advocates ?
To me, a horse becoming footy is a warning that it needs more exercise /less sugar. Just as me drinking too much wine makes me sick. Its a warning that the body doesn't agree with it.
Warning signs are just that, not a full blown illness, so lets keep a sense of perspective.

I have had shoes put on a footy horse temporarily to keep it comfortable and exercised in the days before hoof boots came in such a range of sizes. Was never a problem.
 
Nocturnal said:
Fair enough, it's your call after all. If you ever change your mind and want to help your horse grow nice thick soles, we'll all be here to help.

However, I do not know many shod horses at all which have lived to a ripe old age and retired (or not!) sound without foot problems, or undetected digestive problems which would have caused footiness had they been unshod. Barefoot, if done right, should never cause untold damage to any horse. Or any damage at all.



With quotes such as 'what a load of rubbish' and your refusal to engage in a discussion and explain your views, I don't think it's fair to accuse cptrayes of lacking credibility.

Thankyou nocturnal for the offer of help. Believe me, if I thought it was best for my horse I would give it another go - I tried once and I am not prepared to have her crippled to the point of being on box rest just for the sake of taking her shoes off.

With regard the other issue - if you get a pony dying at the age of 40yrs which has had no digestive issues, never had colic in it's life etc etc, but only two minor incidents of bruised sole after bolting on a road and treading on something sharp, then how can anyone say that him having shoes on made him unhealthy? I can assure you my old pony had NO health issues other than catching strangles when he was 26 - and then subsequently recovered and lived a life of daily heavy hacking, local showing every weekend, until he was 39. Maybe some horses have effects from shoeing, I don't know - but I think it's very far fetched and sometimes unfair to blanket all shod horses with the suggestion that they are unhealthy.
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amymay said:
cptrayes, I've been around horses long enough (barefoot and shod) to know that putting a shoe on a footy horse does not cause laminitis.
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No, and I don't think CPT even said CAUSE laminitis?????!!

Everyone knows, that shoes can mask problems. It's not just common-sense. It's been proven.

So, a horse goes footy... I wonder why?.... nevermind, lets stop it's suffering and put shoes on. Yay, problem solved!
 
horserider said:
Where is this epidemic ? Is it only prevailent amongst the barefoot advocates ?
To me, a horse becoming footy is a warning that it needs more exercise /less sugar. Just as me drinking too much wine makes me sick. Its a warning that the body doesn't agree with it.
Warning signs are just that, not a full blown illness, so lets keep a sense of perspective.

I have had shoes put on a footy horse temporarily to keep it comfortable and exercised in the days before hoof boots came in such a range of sizes. Was never a problem.
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You what???

Where have you been?? Every vet who visits our yard (people seem to have different vets) moans about how many laminitis cases he's attended in the week. RSPCA bang on about it. TLC, Horseworld, WHW, BHS all go on about the "epidemic" that is a figment of everyone's imagination!!!

Sorry we didn't consult you sooner as, it's clear that if we had, laminitis really WOULD be a figment of the imagination...
 
Tally Ho my trimmer said I had to ride my horse out on every surface as much as possible to harden his hooves, so I don't think 6 months in sending him for schooling is unfair?? X
 
Moomin1 said:
Thankyou nocturnal for the offer of help. Believe me, if I thought it was best for my horse I would give it another go - I tried once and I am not prepared to have her crippled to the point of being on box rest just for the sake of taking her shoes off.

With regard the other issue - if you get a pony dying at the age of 40yrs which has had no digestive issues, never had colic in it's life etc etc, but only two minor incidents of bruised sole after bolting on a road and treading on something sharp, then how can anyone say that him having shoes on made him unhealthy? I can assure you my old pony had NO health issues other than catching strangles when he was 26 - and then subsequently recovered and lived a life of daily heavy hacking, local showing every weekend, until he was 39. Maybe some horses have effects from shoeing, I don't know - but I think it's very far fetched and sometimes unfair to blanket all shod horses with the suggestion that they are unhealthy.
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I think you are quite lucky with your pony. I am certainly not saying that all shod horses end up having issues, though; if the horse is healthy and is well shod throughout its life then it may well be fine. However, I do not believe this to be the norm.

Regarding taking shoes off your horse with thin soles - it would probably require her to be booted with pads to walk anywhere, until she had grown some thicker sole, so if she's sound in shoes I can understand why you would not want to try it. You're probably already aware, but just in case - with thin soles her pedal bone will be very vulnerable, so do keep an eye on her.

Troyseph said:
Tally Ho my trimmer said I had to ride my horse out on every surface as much as possible to harden his hooves, so I don't think 6 months in sending him for schooling is unfair?? X
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Your trimmer should have advised you about building up work gradually - did he do this? It is very important that the work your horse does is within his comfort levels.

ETA: You said the horse has been footy since you took shoes off... imho before sending him for schooling this really needs to be addressed. It's not fair to send him away before he's fully transitioned, the change in management and routine will only exacerbate issues, but booting is a perfectly acceptable interrim measure...
 
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Troyseph said:
Tally Ho my trimmer said I had to ride my horse out on every surface as much as possible to harden his hooves, so I don't think 6 months in sending him for schooling is unfair?? X
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Well, according to your own horse, it is!

It's unfair to him if he can't work to the standards you require... and you say he can't (or your trainer says he can't). Your trimmer won't even go out and assess your horse to give you his opinion.

Unless you can bring yourself to put the brakes on and bring him home to see what is really going on, then you have no other choice but to follow your trainers advice and shoe. As everyone else says, this is most probably masking an underlying issue but it will help your horse be more comfortable while he undertakes a task of your asking.
 
tallyho! said:
You what???

Where have you been?? Every vet who visits our yard (people seem to have different vets) moans about how many laminitis cases he's attended in the week. RSPCA bang on about it. TLC, Horseworld, WHW, BHS all go on about the "epidemic" that is a figment of everyone's imagination!!!

Sorry we didn't consult you sooner as, it's clear that if we had, laminitis really WOULD be a figment of the imagination...
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I would expect vets/horse charities would see a lot of laminitis because they treat/rescue sick horses don't they ?

My personal experience is of 5 horses in the last ten years out of a total of around 250 that I've liveried with and known at various places.
 
horserider said:
I would expect vets/horse charities would see a lot of laminitis because they treat/rescue sick horses don't they ?

My personal experience is of 5 horses in the last ten years out of a total of around 250 that I've liveried with and known at various places.
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Well, thats just brilliant. I'm glad for you. Lets hope it stays that way.

Having said that, 5 horses out of 250... what were the reasons? Wasn't shoes was it?? :D:D:D:D

p.s. meant to add, it's still considered an epidemic as it is preventable yet each year, the charities/vets treat FAR too many and PTS FAAARR too many.
 
The charities promote good welfare, diet and appropriate prevention of laminitis, not barefoot or shoeing.

I see the point about warning signs being hidden possibly, but at the end of the day if you have a horse who is barefoot, and is footy due to diet, and a trainer is saying it would benefit the horse's training to be shod, then why not simply address the diet to stop the horse being footy, and then shoe to aid the training?! Everyone is saying these problems are down to diet - so therefore if you address the diet it makes no odds whether horses have shoes on or not. If you have a known navicular/lami horse then at the end of the day you take the necessary diet precautions, and yes, if they are sound barefoot - then it is best they are barefoot. But if they need shoes for heavier work etc (which isn't what horses used to do in the wild if that's what we are talking about) then so be it!
 
Why do people get so het up when unshod horses get discussed?

Op - if you want your horse to remain barefoot then you need to do some things. You need a new trimmer who is prepared to engage with others on a professional level. You need to look at your horse's diet because grass and hayledge just won't cut it for many barefoot horses, particularly at this time of the year. If you want to persevere with his current level of work then you probably need to boot him.

If you aren't that bothered about keeping him unshod, and you want him to carry on being trained away from home, and you don't want to invest in boots, and you believe your trainer and her farrier's opinion... ditch the trimmer and return to the shod world.

It's really simple and other people's decisions about their horses don't really have much to do with it.
 
If you want to carry on doing the level of work you are and can't rein back and look at diet etc. then just shoe.
 
Tinypony said:
Why do people get so het up when unshod horses get discussed?

Op - if you want your horse to remain barefoot then you need to do some things. You need a new trimmer who is prepared to engage with others on a professional level. You need to look at your horse's diet because grass and hayledge just won't cut it for many barefoot horses, particularly at this time of the year. If you want to persevere with his current level of work then you probably need to boot him.

If you aren't that bothered about keeping him unshod, and you want him to carry on being trained away from home, and you don't want to invest in boots, and you believe your trainer and her farrier's opinion... ditch the trimmer and return to the shod world.

It's really simple and other people's decisions about their horses don't really have much to do with it.
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Well said!
 
If I have my horse home we get back to square one of me barely being able to ride him because of his strength when being ridden, because he used to pull carts, hence why he's away for schooling. I appreciate every view and I'm still pondering on what to do!.. It's not an easy decision but I am not a barefoot extremist, nor a shod one, but merely someone that wants the best for their horse, and what works best for us, I will keep researching and let u know what I decide. Thank you x
 
Troyseph said:
If I have my horse home we get back to square one of me barely being able to ride him because of his strength when being ridden, because he used to pull carts, hence why he's away for schooling. I appreciate every view and I'm still pondering on what to do!.. It's not an easy decision but I am not a barefoot extremist, nor a shod one, but merely someone that wants the best for their horse, and what works best for us, I will keep researching and let u know what I decide. Thank you x
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Then perhaps, if your trainer is not prepared to boot, and your trimmer is not prepared to cooperate with said trainer, you should consider shoeing him until his schooling is complete and you're in a position to bring him home and manage his transition yourself. That would be my advice, anyway.
 
It seems to me you need to decide what is most important to you in the short term. Do you want your horse to transition to being barefoot or do you want him to undergo his current training with the current trainer?

It sounds as though it would be possible to do either but possibly not both at the same time with the current set up.
 
Moomin1 said:
but I think it's very far fetched and sometimes unfair to blanket all shod horses with the suggestion that they are unhealthy.
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You see this is the essence of the problem of discussing barefoot. We get idiotic comments like this.

No-one, but no-one, that's no-one has suggested that all shod horses are unhealthy. What a stupid thing that would be to say :mad:

All horses who are shod because they are footie due to their diet and who have shoes put on without the diet being changed certainly are unhealthy, but there are plenty of healthy horses with shoes on.

Since no-one has said otherwise, why do you make such daft comments, it ruins some perfectly valid points that you make.?
 
cptrayes said:
You see this is the essence of the problem of discussing barefoot. We get idiotic comments like this.

No-one, but no-one, that's no-one has suggested that all shod horses are unhealthy. What a stupid thing that would be to say :mad:

All horses who are shod because they are footie due to their diet and who have shoes put on without the diet being changed certainly are unhealthy, but there are plenty of healthy horses with shoes on.

Since no-one has said otherwise, why do you make such daft comments, it ruins some perfectly valid points that you make.?
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Sorry, I would keep replying but I don't think there's much point and I am too full after dinner!
 
Nocturnal said:
However, I do not know many shod horses at all which have lived to a ripe old age and retired (or not!) sound without foot problems, or undetected digestive problems which would have caused footiness had they been unshod. Barefoot, if done right, should never cause untold damage to any horse. Or any damage at all.
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Really ? I know quite a few shod horses in full work in their 20's. One of my former horses is 25 and still competing regularly, as for the 31 yr old on my yard, she's ridden 5 -6 times a week and still pops the odd jump.

cptrayes said:
No-one, but no-one, that's no-one has suggested that all shod horses are unhealthy. What a stupid thing that would be to say :mad:

All horses who are shod because they are footie due to their diet and who have shoes put on without the diet being changed certainly are unhealthy, but there are plenty of healthy horses with shoes on.

Since no-one has said otherwise, why do you make such daft comments, it ruins some perfectly valid points that you make.?
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Well Nocturnal doesn't think many shod horses reach a ripe old age and remain sound.....
 
That's true, I don't know many at all. Perhaps the ones I know have been unlucky, but I doubt it's possible to get accurate figures either way, so there's no way to know for sure. I did not say that all shod horses are unhealthy though...
 
Nocturnal said:
That's true, I don't know many at all. Perhaps the ones I know have been unlucky, but I doubt it's possible to get accurate figures either way, so there's no way to know for sure. I did not say that all shod horses are unhealthy though...
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Nocturnal - many old horses end up with a degree of arthritis, which makes them unsound to various levels. Many owners make the stupid error of believing they should let their horse slow down or retire completely when they hit a certain age, despite whether the horse is fit and healthy and still fully able to work. I think this is where many old horses lose out and end up unsound, not because they have had shoes on.

FWIW - food for thought. I know someone who retired their horse in the early twenties (it was still perfectly capable of working, but they felt it should be retired because it was old). The horse was and always has been barefoot and on high fibre diet with no major issues previously. However, this horse is pretty much now crippled, is on maximum bute, and gets recurring foot abscesses and unexplained lameness. Horse is very grass/sugar limited and is muzzled all summer on strip grazing.
 
Tinypony said:
Why do people get so het up when unshod horses get discussed?

Op - if you want your horse to remain barefoot then you need to do some things. You need a new trimmer who is prepared to engage with others on a professional level. You need to look at your horse's diet because grass and hayledge just won't cut it for many barefoot horses, particularly at this time of the year. If you want to persevere with his current level of work then you probably need to boot him.

If you aren't that bothered about keeping him unshod, and you want him to carry on being trained away from home, and you don't want to invest in boots, and you believe your trainer and her farrier's opinion... ditch the trimmer and return to the shod world.

It's really simple and other people's decisions about their horses don't really have much to do with it.
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Tinypony, I could kiss you. Eminently sensible (as ever) and what I would have said if could but find the words.
 
Moomin1 said:
Nocturnal - many old horses end up with a degree of arthritis, which makes them unsound to various levels. Many owners make the stupid error of believing they should let their horse slow down or retire completely when they hit a certain age, despite whether the horse is fit and healthy and still fully able to work. I think this is where many old horses lose out and end up unsound, not because they have had shoes on.
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I completely agree with this. Nothing keeps an old horse going like keeping an old horse going.
 
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