Stopping a young horse tanking off?

ShadowFlame

ShadowFlame

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Hi guys, after some opinions!

I have a rather green 5yo cob. He's had 3 weeks off ridden work (due to waiting on our new saddle to be made up, still being lunged or longreined most days), and seems to have gotten into the mindset of "cantering's FUN!". He'll walk around the school with no problems at all, long rein, head low, but the minute you ask for anything more, he tanks it and will fly round in a mad canter, not listening to anything. Half halts, leg, circles, wrestling with him, dropping the reins completely, pushing him on 'til I ask him to stop and asking again afterwards, nothing works. I figured it was him running some steam off having not been ridden, but this is happening nearly every time I ask and for over a week. He CAN do a relaxed trot around the school (as he proved on Sunday morning), but I'm getting the impression that he just feels tanking is the better option.

Now, he doesn't stay in trot, it's always canter. I try to catch him with half halts and voice before he goes, he ignores it. There's a few boings here and there but no real bucking. Letting him "burn it off" hasn't helped, so I decided to crack down on him. One rein halt, and a smack on the shoulder when he stops listening. Pone apparently took great offence to this, lost the plot and went into panic mode. Nearly an hour later we finally managed ONE trot around the school without taking off, which was where I called quits.

So... ideas, please? He's quite a sensitive soul for a cob, but he's also very strong. He's currently ridden in a hanging cheek NS, the saddle isn't an issue (treeless, and he was ridden in the same style, reputable treeless for a 3week trial beforehand). Is cracking down and letting him get upset the way forward, or do I need to wait for him to get bored of this? I don't want him to find riding a negative experience, but at the same time I can't afford to ask for trot out hacking and end up with a manic gallop that I can't pull up!! He only started schooling work about 3mths ago, so he is green and he does need schooling. Just interested to hear how other people would deal with this?

Thanks for any replies!
 
He's not doing this for fun.

Millions of transitions, up and down and only a few paces in between.

There is a massive potential for real problems with a horse like this if you try and dominate or bully him.
 
Your use of the whip on the shoulder was incorrect don't ask a horse to stop and then smack it if the horse stops when you ask pat it.
If he was ok before the new saddle I would question the saddle frankly.
That a side it's difficult to advise with out seeing or typing a war and peace length post but every time he tanks of you must calmly halt and pat him and then go back to what you asked .
 
Thanks for the reply. The problem I have is that as soon as he gets the idea into his head (usually the minute I ask for trot), the brakes just switch off?

I'm finding it increasingly frustrating as he was golden before we took that break (he's always been strong, but nothing to this extent). Nothing's changed, we've had no bad experiences, bar the fact he wasn't ridden for a few weeks?

Goldenstar: sorry, crossposted. I rewarded him when he did listen, and any calm behaviour was rewarded. The use of a whip was restricted to the points of him not listening at all. The behaviour was exactly the same when I put him on the lunge (saddle still on, no rider). I'm usure of how to check the saddle, it's a Solution so it shouldn't be causing him any pain.
 
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Ditto pr. And its possible he just finds the school pretty dull, there's only so much you can do in a school with a green horse so its not unlikely he's doing it from boredom. So I'd hack but with a steady older horse he'll stick with, & follow prs advice re transistions out hacking too.
 
He isnt listening, possibly feeling strange in the new saddle, it sounds like he's possibly losing his balance and panicking a bit, difficult to know without seeing him. If he was mine, id probably take him back a step onto the lunge again until i had him listening and responding to my voice aids, then when compliant with that id get on and ensure the stopping aids are in place at walk before doing anything else, when listening in walk to halt, try trotting a few strides, then walk, several strides and back to walk using voice, seat, legs and a squeeze of fingers on the rein, big fuss when he complies. Deffo put a neck strap on and use that if you feel you need a pull but hopefully he wont, if he does and is unsafe id stop using the neck strap and fence rather than pulling a young mouth.
Please put the whip away :-)
 
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I think it is most likely that he finds schooling Bleddy hard and cantering is a much easier option than working properly in trot. My youngster would rather put in a few strides of canter than extend his trot... it's an evasion and you need to be very black and white about the way you handle it. I would reccomend recruiting a good instructor to help you through this and you may want to change your bit to something he will respect a bit more - certainly in the short term.

I recently changed to a dutch gag on my instructor's recomendation and rather than walking through my requests to stop, my boy now halts... immediately... again I have had to be very cut and dry with my aids and mean it but 4 weeks on and he is very respectful. Hope to swap back to snaffle soon :)

I would take things back to basics... walk and halt only, then when you feel you have responsive brakes, ask for short lengths of trot, then back to walk, halt. NO CANTER... for a while anyway.
 
ShadowFlame said:
Thanks for the reply. The problem I have is that as soon as he gets the idea into his head (usually the minute I ask for trot), the brakes just switch off?

I'm finding it increasingly frustrating as he was golden before we took that break (he's always been strong, but nothing to this extent). Nothing's changed, we've had no bad experiences, bar the fact he wasn't ridden for a few weeks?

Goldenstar: sorry, crossposted. I rewarded him when he did listen, and any calm behaviour was rewarded. The use of a whip was restricted to the points of him not listening at all. The behaviour was exactly the same when I put him on the lunge (saddle still on, no rider). I'm usure of how to check the saddle, it's a Solution so it shouldn't be causing him any pain.
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So he's ok on the lunge with out the saddle ?
You can never say the saddles an x so it must be fine you must always question equipment in situations like this..
 
Similar problem with our young heavyweight cob (RID x Clyde).

Lack of being able to maintain balance is her problem. As PR says transitions are the answer. Our cob has mastered walk, up through the shoulders and with cadence. Trot is a massive problem for her. The first few steps are good but she cannot keep her shoulders up, drops onto her forehand and runs. If her mouth is touched she curls her neck back.

Progress is being made with endless transitions, including rein back. Endless patience is needed to keep at it. She managed an entire 20 metre circle at the weekend, we threw a party !!!

Please don't be offended, but perhaps some help from a good instructor will help you OP, you need to be able to feel those very few steps of balance he offers you and know when to stop him before he loses his balance again, and eyes on the ground are a great help, they can see something that feels awful in the saddle but is actually progress.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Similar problem with our young heavyweight cob (RID x Clyde).

Lack of being able to maintain balance is her problem. As PR says transitions are the answer. Our cob has mastered walk, up through the shoulders and with cadence. Trot is a massive problem for her. The first few steps are good but she cannot keep her shoulders up, drops onto her forehand and runs. If her mouth is touched she curls her neck back.

Progress is being made with endless transitions, including rein back. Endless patience is needed to keep at it. She managed an entire 20 metre circle at the weekend, we threw a party !!!

Please don't be offended, but perhaps some help from a good instructor will help you OP, you need to be able to feel those very few steps of balance he offers you and know when to stop him before he loses his balance again, and eyes on the ground are a great help, they can see something that feels awful in the saddle but is actually progress.
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^^^^ yep :D
 
TAL - Potentially. Having said that I'm reluctant to take him out right now with this behaviour. I had a nasty accident off him earlier in the year out on the roads, I don't fancy repeating it! We don't have any off road riding 'til spring.. maybe I'll try long reining out and see how he goes.

PR - Walk and back-up are fine, halt can be a little delayed but he usually listens. I guess it's back to basics and try from there?

Lunging without the saddle - we haven't done in the past week or so. I'll try this and see if he's any different. We've cut canter out completely at the moment (intentional canter, anyway). I'll look into instructors... I wasn't sure if a stronger bit would make the situation better or worse?

AA - that sounds pretty familiar actually. He tends to arch himself and launch into canter, I'm assuming due to balance? Sounds like an instructor will be a good idea.

Appreciating the advice, thank you!
 
dont automatically go for a stronger bit. he is only young and it could be that, for whatever reason, he is finding balance a bit difficult at the moment (is he still growing?), or maybe the saddle feels different or he is plain trying it on at the moment. Whichever way, dont harden his mouth if you have not had problems with him before. try some other things first, lots of transitions, rein backs, changes of direction, etc. Give him something else to think about other than canter. find an instructor if you can too. good luck :)
 
just another thought..... when he runs off, is he opening his mouth to avoid the bit? if so, stick a flash on and see if that helps.
 
ShadowFlame said:
"cantering's FUN!".........he tanks it and will fly round in a mad canter, not listening to anything. I figured it was him running some steam off having not been ridden...........One rein halt, and a smack on the shoulder when he stops listening. Pone apparently took great offence to this, lost the plot and went into panic mode. Nearly an hour later we finally managed ONE trot around the school without taking off, which was where I called quits...........saddle isn't an issue (treeless, and he was ridden in the same style, reputable treeless for a 3week trial beforehand).
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1. No smacking on the shoulder again, naughty from you!
2. Lots of 'stops' in the school environment. You must release rein pressure very quickly the moment he provides the stop to reward and motivate him to understand what rein pressure means - this is key. At the moment he has poor deceleration responses.
3. Letting off steam is for the feild - not when you're trying to teach obedience under saddle.
4. Don't reinforce the bolt - or add fear by smacking. Make sure you can stop from the walk. When you can stop from the walk, add a trot. Once you know you can stop from the trot, only then add the canter.
5. As you're working on the walk to halt transition add a rein back to reinforce the 'stop' aids - as other poster mentioned.
6. No one rein halt. You have taught him that one rein means 'turn' and up till now you have taught him that two reins means 'stop'. Don't confuse him. Two reins from now on.
7. BTW - treeless have been found to focus more pressure in one smaller area and thus don't distribute the weight more evenly across the back like a treed saddle - just a thought!
 
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Thank you :) Yes, he does tend to open his mouth and evade, only once he's already tanked. He's an awkward size to fit so I'm still trying to get hold of one at the mo. He's always been very downhill but he seems to have come up a little at the front recently, so thinking about it probably is balance that's the main issue.

Right, so flash, look up some instructors and back to basics for a bit?

Tonks - thank you, I'll take that into account. I'm aware treeless saddles are a bit like marmite, but he went well in the trial saddle and it's a reputable make that has done a LOT of pressure testing. He's been ridden treeless in the past without a problem too. Sometimes it's hard to know just how to handle a situation, I thought that maybe "forcing" a halt with a one rein stop would make him realise that he CAN'T do that. Misplaced logic, I'm afraid :(
 
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I aggree with everyone who has said I would seek help on the ground from a trainer in the meantime stay safe and make lots of walk halt release contact pat walk on transitions out hacking as well as in school give as much turn out as possible and as little (or no ) hard food as possible .
And question the saddle fit .
 
Goldenstar said:
I aggree with everyone who has said I would seek help on the ground from a trainer in the meantime stay safe and make lots of walk halt release contact pat walk on transitions out hacking as well as in school give as much turn out as possible and as little (or no ) hard food as possible .
And question the saddle fit .
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Sound advice.
 
Goldenstar said:
I aggree with everyone who has said I would seek help on the ground from a trainer in the meantime stay safe and make lots of walk halt release contact pat walk on transitions out hacking as well as in school give as much turn out as possible and as little (or no ) hard food as possible .
And question the saddle fit .
Click to expand...

Thanks :) I'm looking into instructors as we speak. We'll try basics tonight and see how he copes. He's getting 11-12hrs turnout per day (we have to stable at night, otherwise he'd be out 24/7), and only gets a token feed (dengie good doer). It is, however, his first winter being stabled so that probably doesn't help.

I can ask my rep to have another look at the saddle, but with it being rigidfree there shouldn't be anywhere for there to be issue with fit :(
 
ShadowFlame said:
Thanks :) I'm looking into instructors as we speak. We'll try basics tonight and see how he copes. He's getting 11-12hrs turnout per day (we have to stable at night, otherwise he'd be out 24/7), and only gets a token feed (dengie good doer). It is, however, his first winter being stabled so that probably doesn't help.

I can ask my rep to have another look at the saddle, but with it being rigidfree there shouldn't be anywhere for there to be issue with fit :(
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You need to keep your mind open to all possibilities with horses just because a saddle is " insert whatever " does not guarantee your horse is comfortable in it.
If this worsening of behaviour coincides with a new saddle you must question it.
The rep should be happy to do this if they are not I would questioning their commitment to customner care .
 
Christsam said:
just another thought..... when he runs off, is he opening his mouth to avoid the bit? if so, stick a flash on and see if that helps.
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Sticking a flash on and strapping his gob shut can make things ten times worse though as it can really give them somethinng to lean against.

Changing bits and even going for a slightly stronger one is NOT a bad thing... bits are only as harsh as the hands that use them and at the end of the day, there are a variety of mouthpieces that alter their strength. For example I would always go for a narrow french link / lozenge mouthpiece rather than a single jointed bit as I feel these are both more comfortable and more effective for the horse. Sometimes when you are a relatively small person, riding a big, strong / stroppy horse, a little (temporary) reinforcement is neccessary and it shouldn't be so frowned upon to try a different bit. It is all a matter of consideration.

I would echo the suggestions to consider the saddle as a cause of the problem though. I have known several horses react adversely to treeless saddles and I have also known severfal 'proffessionally fitted' saddles not to fit!!
 
CBFan said:
Sticking a flash on and strapping his gob shut can make things ten times worse though as it can really give them somethinng to lean against.

Changing bits and even going for a slightly stronger one is NOT a bad thing... bits are only as harsh as the hands that use them and at the end of the day, there are a variety of mouthpieces that alter their strength. For example I would always go for a narrow french link / lozenge mouthpiece rather than a single jointed bit as I feel these are both more comfortable and more effective for the horse. Sometimes when you are a relatively small person, riding a big, strong / stroppy horse, a little (temporary) reinforcement is neccessary and it shouldn't be so frowned upon to try a different bit. It is all a matter of consideration.

I would echo the suggestions to consider the saddle as a cause of the problem though. I have known several horses react adversely to treeless saddles and I have also known severfal 'proffessionally fitted' saddles not to fit!!
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you dont have to "strap his gob shut" with a flash. its just to stop him opening it so wide. the only reason I said not to just change to a stronger bit on was because this has come on suddenly and the OP has had no problems before. Theres a lot more to go through rather than just changing to a stronger bit, especially when the problem has suddenly occurred. I did also say about lots of varied work and checking the saddle.
 
When he goes faster I would drop the contact and think walk, give him a pat. I have thought mine that dropping the reins, relaxing my seat and a pat means finished. Its quite funny how quick they grind to a halt when I do it. So if they ever get a bit keen and forward I relax and pat and we are back under control. Trick and old show jumper told me.
 
Cantering off as he is doing can also be a sign of panic - you say he's only been schooling for 3 months, so I assume he's recently broken in.

Get yourself some good professional help.
 
Just another thought for the mix.... you say you had an accident earlier in the year whilst out hacking. Is there any chance that any demons have come back to haunt YOU whilst you've been unable to ride him? It doesn't take long for confidence to slip and it may be that you are riding him slightly more tensely than you were before and with that AND the new saddle, perhaps he's confused as it's all changed "up top" for him....
 
I'm aware some horses just don't agree with treeless, but we had one of these saddles on trial for 3 weeks before buying one. He was more forward in said saddle and had a few "woohoo" moments, but he was working much longer and lower than in his treed (which was fitted professionally, but didn't fit him at all).

I believe I mentioned earlier in the post that he has always been strong, but he's never taken it to to this level before. I may look into a slightly stronger bit and see what difference it makes, but I'll try the other options first. I don't really want to mask the issue by throwing a stronger bit at him if I can help it.

I've tried dropping the reins, I've had him completely chilled out in walk on a loose rein, then asked for trot on the same rein (the aim being a very slow, calm trot). He still tanks despite having nothing to lean against.

AM - He was broken in this time last year, but he had 6mths off due to said accident and my confidence issues. In reality, he's done 6mths of very basic work. I am seeking professional help.

CL - Potentially. Said accident killed my confidence, which was why we moved to a yard with a school. I stopped riding for 6mths after it happened, as I was a nervous wreck. Having said that, we've worked through the demons and my confidence is the highest it's been in a long time (though still not perfect). Had he pulled the same stunt 3mths ago I'd probably be sat in a corner crying :o
 
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