Stopping my horse from napping and getting him listening

[khalino]

Heya guys.

I've got a 15yo KWPN gelding whom I bought 6 months ago and have had to re-back and desensitise him. Now that's all done, I've run into another problem.

Getting him to listen when we're on our own. Both in the school and out hacking. He naps and generally doesn't listen to be my aids and there really isn't any point in me bullying him or booting him because that just isn't my style.
He's only been back in work for a month but has shown plenty of energy when I'm being taught in the school or out with others on a hack, and his back, limbs etc are all fine.

So, I've tried to keep things as interesting as possible in the school, changing directions, transitions both up and down (halt, walk, trot), he can't quite canter under saddle yet. But nothing is working.
He's being clipped soon, I think he's rather uncomfortable with all that fuzz right now. But apart from all this.
What can I do?

 

[Tash88]

Well done for all the hard work you have put in so far, it can't have been easy. What does your instructor think when you discuss the napping problem and do you do groundwork/lunge him at all?

 

[madlady]

I have to say I would be inclined to carry a short whip and just give him a reminder tap on his shoulder - that isn't bullying it is using an aid to ask him to listen.

 

[khalino]

Thank you. Oh god, it was painful, trust me lol.

My instructor thinks it's a mix of lack of fitness and being cheeky. I think the same, he'd rather spin on the spot or chuck his head down than listen to me at time.
I do a decent amount of lunging with him, both under saddle and naked and he free-jumps well too.
I'm having another lesson on Monday but I'm going to ride him again before that, so any tips in the mean time would be really helpful.

Annoyingly, there are no flat fields where I can easily school him with no distractions either, so I have to pick and choose either the jumping school or the main school.

 

[khalino]

I have to say I would be inclined to carry a short whip and just give him a reminder tap on his shoulder - that isn't bullying it is using an aid to ask him to listen.

Heya,
Sorry I forgo to add, if a whip even so much as touches him, you're off.
He was beaten severely (apparently) with whips and I'm working on calming him down around them.
I've never carried a whip/crop on a horse before and it's currently a death trap to do so on him.
I'm not dismissing the idea, I think I just need a little more time, I'm looking to work myself (smack the rider, pat the horse) and is all else fails, then I will carry a whip.

 

[madlady]

Heya,
Sorry I forgo to add, if a whip even so much as touches him, you're off.
He was beaten severely (apparently) with whips and I'm working on calming him down around them.
I've never carried a whip/crop on a horse before and it's currently a death trap to do so on him.
I'm not dismissing the idea, I think I just need a little more time, I'm looking to work myself (smack the rider, pat the horse) and is all else fails, then I will carry a whip.

That puts a slightly different spin on things then. What is he like to long rein or do ground work with (I'm just not a huge fan of lunging) I think that long reining is excellent to get them listening and going off voice commands which then come in very useful when they are having a melt down moment - my gelding was broken to drive and I can put an absolute novice on him and know that he will go off my voice due to the long reining and groundwork that has been done with him. I use rope halter and long line to teach mine basic manners as youngsters and have found that they've taken to it relatively quickly and have always remembered what they have learned.

In your circumstances though (given the history) I think I'd be tempted to sit quiet while he has his meltdown, use voice as much as possible and then ask him to carry on - I really can't think of anything else but I have found patience to be a wonderful tool - all of my horses get bored before I do!

 

[khalino]

That puts a slightly different spin on things then. What is he like to long rein or do ground work with (I'm just not a huge fan of lunging) I think that long reining is excellent to get them listening and going off voice commands which then come in very useful when they are having a melt down moment - my gelding was broken to drive and I can put an absolute novice on him and know that he will go off my voice due to the long reining and groundwork that has been done with him. I use rope halter and long line to teach mine basic manners as youngsters and have found that they've taken to it relatively quickly and have always remembered what they have learned.

In your circumstances though (given the history) I think I'd be tempted to sit quiet while he has his meltdown, use voice as much as possible and then ask him to carry on - I really can't think of anything else but I have found patience to be a wonderful tool - all of my horses get bored before I do!

Fab on the lunge line actually, a pleasure to work with. Long Reining, I haven't yet tried this, but will have to soon. I haven't got a roller yet. I do need to get a rope halter for lunging because he's very much into breaching your personal space.

I've been trying to do so, it's ended up with me taking a couple of serious falls though, but as you said, patience is a brilliant tool. I have miles of that so I think it'll get through to him eventually.

I'm also thinking he may just be bored out of his head when doing normal flatwork, but as I'm trying to get him back into Dressage, if he naps in the arena, it's not something I'm looking forward too.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Get your instructor to ride him .

 

[Tammytoo]

Have you considered clicker training? A horse as defensive as yours needs lots of positive reinforcement to encourage him to trust and listen to you, at the momet he is looking looking out for himself, not un-naturally given his past history. If you have the patience and open mindedness to try this I am sure you will both reap the benefits.

 

[khalino]

Get your instructor to ride him .

That's a good idea. I'll see what she says as she's very busy.

 

[khalino]

Have you considered clicker training? A horse as defensive as yours needs lots of positive reinforcement to encourage him to trust and listen to you, at the momet he is looking looking out for himself, not un-naturally given his past history. If you have the patience and open mindedness to try this I am sure you will both reap the benefits.

I haven't thought about clicker training, but I'll look into it now.
He's come a very long way and just seems to be stubborn. I'm going to take up Bonkers idea of getting my trainer to ride him as well. But I shall certainly look into Clicker Training as well, it seems fun and I think he'll like it

 

[uncle max]

How about trying some Michael Peace stuff, ridden and groundwork, with him. And a "whip whop" instead of a whip to encourage him forward..( about £8 on eBay)..got Michael Peace books on Ebay too,worked with mine!

 

[Firewell]

If it was me I would do some in hand work with him. I would use an Intelligent Horsemanship rep to help. Im not talking a carrot waving tree hugger but I have used these people several times with horses over the years and it's just about pressure and release and getting the horse to respect your space and move their feet at your direction. This carrys on under saddle with respecting your aids, having their attention and making sure they are off your leg. If he trusts and respects you he won't nap and he will become sharper to your aids so when you put your leg on he will go forwards.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I would do lots more groundwork, rubbing him all over with lunge rein and whips, there are loads of videos showing how to do this, gloves on stick etc etc. It sounds as though there is little you can do when he is having meltdown when ridden, so you will have to re break him, this will highlight the problems and show you where you need to work thru.
Use voice commands, they know from your voice when they are doing wrong. "Cut That Out" [loud] is a good one, but use it sparingly.. A flick on the neck with your fingers can work to get his attention.
Carriage horses are always listening for the next command, so you need to use voice carefully, good boy/steady is fine, but don't waffle on, otherwise he will stop listening for the next command.
He will easily learn the voice command to walk on terrrrrot Kanter etc.
BUT it is possible that you will have to ignore some bad behaviour episodes, so that he knows you will never ever beat him or treat him unfairly.

 

[khalino]

Thank you to everyone who's commented and given advice, I have an update.

It was because I was rushing him and therefore rushing myself. I wasn't giving clear signals and I wasn't giving him the time to respond or giving myself to time to adjust accordingly.
I took him back to basics, yesterday and today and he responds so much better when I go slow and clear.
I've reverted to my old way of riding and he seems to be responding so much better. I do have a lesson on Monday, so it's going to be trotting poles and relaxation for us.

Thank you all for your input <3

 

[Tash88]

My instructor thinks it's a mix of lack of fitness and being cheeky. I think the same, he'd rather spin on the spot or chuck his head down than listen to me at time.
I do a decent amount of lunging with him, both under saddle and naked and he free-jumps well too.
I'm having another lesson on Monday but I'm going to ride him again before that, so any tips in the mean time would be really helpful.

I think fitness is a big part of it - when he finds it physically (and mentally) easier his work ethic should improve. Is he having regular massage/physio/similar sessions? Addressing any areas of tightness could help too; he doesn't have to obviously be in pain/lame to find something difficult and some horses just respond differently to being made to work hard than others. It sounds like feeling under pressure worries him a bit, and at his age with an unknown history I wouldn't be surprised if there was some (treatable) discomfort somewhere.

What is he like when you lunge him - does he spin on the lunge at all?

 

[Tash88]

Thank you to everyone who's commented and given advice, I have an update.

It was because I was rushing him and therefore rushing myself. I wasn't giving clear signals and I wasn't giving him the time to respond or giving myself to time to adjust accordingly.
I took him back to basics, yesterday and today and he responds so much better when I go slow and clear.
I've reverted to my old way of riding and he seems to be responding so much better. I do have a lesson on Monday, so it's going to be trotting poles and relaxation for us.

Thank you all for your input <3

That is great to hear! I did write my reply before reading the rest of the thread