stopping saddle twisting across back?

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lara b

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Hi,

Following some time off the big cobs saddle keeps rolling and by the end of the ride it is sitting slightly diagonally across his back. I am pretty sure this is due to muscle wastage on one side of his wither. This is causing the saddle to tilt and twist.

I had his saddle re flocked a few months ago but it hasn't helped. I have also tried two other saddles that fitted quite well but did the same thing so I know it is him not the saddle that is crooked.

I have the back lady who is also a saddle fitter looking at him Monday but in case she can't find anything I would like any advice from anyone with a similar problem and any solutions?

I have been trying to school more and build top line but he is still wonky.

What do you reckon ... More schooling... Padding... Anything else?!

Thanks for any advice!
 
Hope you don't take offence, but have you considered it could be you? If several saddles do it and the back lady has found no issues on your horse? Worth a saddle fitter out and trip to the physio for you!
 
ThePony said:
Hope you don't take offence, but have you considered it could be you? If several saddles do it and the back lady has found no issues on your horse? Worth a saddle fitter out and trip to the physio for you!
Click to expand...

hmm.. I wonder..

Must admit I do suffer a bit with my back but I do a lot of yoga and have had some classical lessons to keep an eye on my position and haven't been told I am particularly wonky, but could be me I guess :o

Never had this problem with any of mine before though or with the spanish horse I have had some lessons on (although haven't actually looked at his saddle after riding!).

Maybe it is a gradual build up of us both being wonky that is making each other worse!
 
Worth getting yourself checked out by a chiro or osteo for straightness.

For slipping saddles I start with the basic fit - is the width right, not too perched with too high a pommel (even if the right width), is the tree flat enough, is the panel flat enough? A too curved tree is just as likely to make a saddle move as a too narrow one. The if I am happy with all of that, I can girth asymmetrically, or for more severe cases I use a Mattes correction pad, nothing else is as good in my opinion. Do get help for trimming up the shims though - you must trim every single shim so that there are no deep "lips" under the saddle, and lift it in the right place.
 
sbloom said:
Worth getting yourself checked out by a chiro or osteo for straightness.

For slipping saddles I start with the basic fit - is the width right, not too perched with too high a pommel (even if the right width), is the tree flat enough, is the panel flat enough? A too curved tree is just as likely to make a saddle move as a too narrow one. The if I am happy with all of that, I can girth asymmetrically, or for more severe cases I use a Mattes correction pad, nothing else is as good in my opinion. Do get help for trimming up the shims though - you must trim every single shim so that there are no deep "lips" under the saddle, and lift it in the right place.
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Thanks for your reply, interesting stuff... what is asymmetric girthing? Using different straps each side? (It's an Albion k2 if that helps). Thanks again
 
You have stated in the first post that he had wastage one side of his wither so this is certainly why your saddle goes to one side. For example if the wastage is say on the right side of wither then your saddle will go over to the left and visa versa. You may find a saddle pad that you can put a either shim in that side may help. Can u post pic of your boy and saddle dilema .
I think you need a remedial saddlery to help as just flocking will not of addressed the problem
 
Asymmetric girthing is indeed using different straps on each side :). You may find it works even with visible muscle wastage but it is likely you'll need a shim pad in this instance.

For a saddle that slips to the right, I would have started with symmetrical girthing - point and 3rd straps on both sides, then gone to point and last (balance) straps on the left, to hold the cantle over. Work through it logically, don't get too extreme, and see what works. Not so useful if there is no point or balance straps of course!

Shimming is even less predicatble, you might find that padding the smaller doesn't actually work as well as another option.
 
The poster usel1999 has posted spam in this thread and everytime I view it a site certificate warning comes up,but only on this particulate thread. I am on my phone and don't know how to report it...anyone else able to do this! Bloody spammers!
 
"You have stated in the first post that he had wastage one side of his wither so this is certainly why your saddle goes to one side. For example if the wastage is say on the right side of wither then your saddle will go over to the left and visa versa"

Sorry but think this is incorrect. If the wastage is on the horse's right side wither then the saddle will fall into this wasted area and thus, because the girth is effectively holding the front left of the saddle, the back RIGHT of the saddle will slew across to the right side and twist the saddle. This will bring the right front of the saddle forward onto the shoulder/wither into a position that could pinch the horse.

Cobs, and fat round cobs are very difficult to fit a saddle to. I also have a horse with one wither much bigger than the other (maybe because he was driven in early life and always pulled with one shoulder) and the saddle tends to want to slew round into the lesser developed wither . The saddle fitter tried many different saddles and I have ended up with an M&M type. This has 4 girth straps. I too have to girth up asymmetrically. If the horse has a less developed right wither, you will need to girth up on the horses right side using strap 1 and 2 numbered from the front. And on the horse's left you will need to girth up 1 and 3 or 1 and 4. I was advised to have 1 and 4 and to ensure that the buckle on 4 was always one hole higher than on 1. This should help to hold the rear of the saddle more central, raher than let it follow the dipping into the wither.

As for any padding on one side only - from my experience it is not a good idea. It is very difficult to get it thin enough and to follow exactly the horse's shape. Infill on the lesser wither side can end up causing a pinching; my saddler is loathed to make the saddle filling asymmetrical but says that this would be the last resort. I have also tried 'sticky' numnah pads ( absolutely no use at all). Thick sheepskin numnahs just raise the problem up off the horse and can make the slipping/slewing more extreme.

If your horse has true muscle wastage at the wither, then you need to address the cause ( vet/ physio). There are exercises that you can do with your horse, both ridden and on the ground, that will help him build up muscle more equally. pm me if you want. A good saddle fitter will be the best one to advise you. Good luck!
 
marlyclay said:
The poster usel1999 has posted spam in this thread and everytime I view it a site certificate warning comes up,but only on this particulate thread. I am on my phone and don't know how to report it...anyone else able to do this! Bloody spammers!
Click to expand...

I don't get any such warnings. But I don't understand the contents of use1999 post!
 
HappyHooves said:
Sorry but think this is incorrect. If the wastage is on the horse's right side wither then the saddle will fall into this wasted area and thus, because the girth is effectively holding the front left of the saddle, the back RIGHT of the saddle will slew across to the right side and twist the saddle. This will bring the right front of the saddle forward onto the shoulder/wither into a position that could pinch the horse. !
Click to expand...

That is exactly what is happening! Wither wastage to right and he was also driven when he was younger..


HappyHooves said:
Cobs, and fat round cobs are very difficult to fit a saddle to. I also have a horse with one wither much bigger than the other (maybe because he was driven in early life and always pulled with one shoulder) and the saddle tends to want to slew round into the lesser developed wither . The saddle fitter tried many different saddles and I have ended up with an M&M type. This has 4 girth straps. I too have to girth up asymmetrically. If the horse has a less developed right wither, you will need to girth up on the horses right side using strap 1 and 2 numbered from the front. And on the horse's left you will need to girth up 1 and 3 or 1 and 4. I was advised to have 1 and 4 and to ensure that the buckle on 4 was always one hole higher than on 1. This should help to hold the rear of the saddle more central, raher than let it follow the dipping into the wither.

As for any padding on one side only - from my experience it is not a good idea. It is very difficult to get it thin enough and to follow exactly the horse's shape. Infill on the lesser wither side can end up causing a pinching; my saddler is loathed to make the saddle filling asymmetrical but says that this would be the last resort. I have also tried 'sticky' numnah pads ( absolutely no use at all). Thick sheepskin numnahs just raise the problem up off the horse and can make the slipping/slewing more extreme.

If your horse has true muscle wastage at the wither, then you need to address the cause ( vet/ physio). There are exercises that you can do with your horse, both ridden and on the ground, that will help him build up muscle more equally. pm me if you want. A good saddle fitter will be the best one to advise you. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for your detailed reply, very insightful, SBloom has also mentioned asymetric girthing so will give that a go and will also see what back lady/saddler says Monday but may well PM you if still struggling :)
 
Oh well must just be me then? But I am def getting a security warning and use1999 has posted a link for hyperbank . They are not a genuine poster. Need to inform the moderater.
Interesting post by the way,hope you get your saddle prob sorted
 
sbloom said:
Asymmetric girthing is indeed using different straps on each side :). You may find it works even with visible muscle wastage but it is likely you'll need a shim pad in this instance.

For a saddle that slips to the right, I would have started with symmetrical girthing - point and 3rd straps on both sides, then gone to point and last (balance) straps on the left, to hold the cantle over. Work through it logically, don't get too extreme, and see what works. Not so useful if there is no point or balance straps of course!

Shimming is even less predicatble, you might find that padding the smaller doesn't actually work as well as another option.
Click to expand...

Thank you! :)

Flame_ said:
Are you sure he is sound
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I believe so, he spent a month at rvc (abcess in colon) end of last year so hopefully they would have noticed any lameness. He sounds and feels sound to me and is not at all pottery and my vet drives past us quite often so think he would stop and hollar if he saw anything up whilst he was stuck waiting to overtake!
 
Here are some pictures for those interested. Thanks for everyone's replies

twistingsaddle.jpg
 
Actually a hole in the right shoulder CAN cause a saddle to go to the left at the front, it then DOES go forwards and up on the right, and the cantle twists to the right. I don't think the two disagreeing are actually disagreeing! But asymmetric back shapes can give unpreditable slippage results!

And sheepskin lined pads do not cause saddles to perch and slip in the vast majority of cases. I may, as a fitter, have done a few remedial fits with them in my time...and yes the shims in the Mattes pads are thin, and you CAN use just one, but more commonly I will use one large one filling the whole pocket, then a smaller one perhaps at the points, or just the front half of the shoulder pocket...it varies. It is subtle, not like foam shimmed pads. You can't make sweeping statements about this stuff.
 
Looking at the pics it might be a little cantle low, hard to tell from the back, and the panels may not be flat enough from side to side, but again, no always easy to tell from pics.
 
Hi,

Thanks again for everyones help, I think we may have cracked it!

Went to local tack shop on Saturday and got the exact same saddle on trial as think his old one may have stretched a bit (got albion k2 wide, but 17'' instead of 17.5), tried it and very happy! schooled in it Sunday and hacked Monday and all good with no twisting to the right (although am using asymetric girthing, thanks for that suggestion!).

Saddle fitter/back lady came Monday after ride and confirmed he was wonky (atlas and pelvis plus knots over ribs where old one was twisting) plus old saddle no good for him as for some reason is wider and slightly different tree and panels. She was also happy with fit of new saddle and said the panels where much better for him, so will try it once more tonight and then pay for it tomorrow all being well.

I also had a treatment yesterday and my right shoulder is really knotty and stuck down (from holding him up!) so we are both now treated and starting our schooling again gently after a few days hacking in straight lines, when I will be paying lots of attention to not letting him lean on me!

Here are some pictures of the new saddle
newsaddle.jpg


So after all that I believe we no longer have a twisting saddle :):)
 
Rode in it again last night and still no twisting, it rolls a little on him but to be honest he is so round that even my saddle fitter thought that was pretty much inevitable!

But just bumping for any last minute opinions before I pay for it! :)
 
Clearly it's an improvement, and again the pics only tell so much, it does look possibly a hair wide still - look at the trim on the front of the sweat flap, it looks like it angles out away from him just a smidge, and that the shape of the pommel is a little high for a fairly wide flat horse. This could be what is giving you the remaining roll. Any roll means it's not quite perfect but obviously without seeing it, it's really hard to say.
 
sbloom said:
Clearly it's an improvement, and again the pics only tell so much, it does look possibly a hair wide still - look at the trim on the front of the sweat flap, it looks like it angles out away from him just a smidge, and that the shape of the pommel is a little high for a fairly wide flat horse. This could be what is giving you the remaining roll. Any roll means it's not quite perfect but obviously without seeing it, it's really hard to say.
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Must admit did think about trying a mw but have a feeling that will perch too high on him... Albion seem to be the only make that do a gullet wide enough for his spine (have tried morris and nolan, kent and master, thorowgood, another walsall saddler and Ideal so far!), so may just stick with this, am a little worried that in the winter he will drop off and need the mw though....I HATE saddles :D:D
 
If the right tree width perches on him (and tree width is ALL about the angle of the points against the horse's ribcage, nothing else) then the saddle is wrong. I will pm you.
 
sbloom said:
If the right tree width perches on him (and tree width is ALL about the angle of the points against the horse's ribcage, nothing else) then the saddle is wrong. I will pm you.
Click to expand...

Thanks, really appriciate your advice. The other thing I should mention is that the side view you were looking at was from the dropped away wither side which is where it's a bit wide. From the other side the saddle is quite snug (which is what is stopping me going to the mw) so here is a picture of that in case it makes any difference.

saddle.jpg


Thanks :)
 
It might be okay, a photo taken from slightly higher up ie level with the points/pommel area might show the points directly. It's certainly not horrendously far out.
 
sbloom said:
It might be okay, a photo taken from slightly higher up ie level with the points/pommel area might show the points directly. It's certainly not horrendously far out.
Click to expand...

Thanks, will take one next time I ride. Have to make a decision tomorrow morning whether to return it or not but as it's not big money think I will keep it as it's certainly better than his other one for now. The dressage version fits a treat and if he didn't stick the odd big buck in would just call it a day and ride everywhere in that! :D
 
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