Stories of barefoot not working for caudal heel pain?

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avthechav

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So as usual have been endless reading barefoot blogs and anecdotal evidence or barefoot rehab. Is there anyone who has managed to crack diet, environment and exercise but still has lameness is a horse diagnosed with caudal heel pain? Guess there are so many variables it's hard to know if you have all 'optimum'?
 
Hi I see you have also posted on Phoenix. A Caudal heel pain diagnosis is actually quite vague. Whilst the next thought is often 'navicular syndrome' caudal heel pain can be caused by something as simple as thrush or an underdeveloped digital cushion.

If your horse has unresolved caudal heel pain it would be interesting to have a fuller case history and some photos.

Most of my clients get a decent heel within 12 months, many within a much shorter space of time. I've had a few where conditions from a horse's point of view have not been optimal and these have struggled.
 
Hi Lucy, thanks for replying. My horse was diagnosed over MRI with nav bone inflammation and the start of damage to ddft hence my decision to go barefoot. I am taking pics and vids each week and will update my last thread next time I some piccies :-). My reason for asking was that I am reading lots of successful barefoot rehab stories for horses similar to mine but can find very little about cases where it just hasn't worked. I wasn't sure whether this was down to less people writing about it when it doesn't work or genuinely less cases of it not working. The barefoot forum I would imagine would have more people where it had worked, so I was interested to see if people on here had different opinions.

Guess that success or failure really is down to whether you can manage to get everything optimum or not. With some horses it seems that this is very hard.
 
I honestly believe that you can't find failures because there are so few. And those that there are are not because barefoot does not cure caudal hoof lameness, but because the horse which 'fails' has undiagnosed metabolic disease or the owner is simply unable to give it the work and/or environment that the horse needs to rebuild its feet.
 
OP - research has been conducted which shows the DDFT damage seems to happen first and this often comes from a long toe and collapsed heel. If these are not addressed then no you won't resolve the problem. Otherwise I agree with cptrayes. I see a lot of naviculars that also have metabolic issues that have until that point been ignored.
 
Cpt, yes I think that you are right. I think that the scientist in me would like to see studies with MRI images before and after rehab, but who is going to pay to MRI a sound horse! It certainly is interesting (albeit still anecdotal) that on a general forum like h&h and also the phoenix forum there are only a few people reporting difficult cases and even these sound like there are other underlying issues going on.



LucyPriory said:
OP - research has been conducted which shows the DDFT damage seems to happen first and this often comes from a long toe and collapsed heel. If these are not addressed then no you won't resolve the problem. Otherwise I agree with cptrayes. I see a lot of naviculars that also have metabolic issues that have until that point been ignored.
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Lucy that is interesting. As I understood it the ddft damage was in response to the nav and nav bursa not doing their job properly but sounds like I have misunderstood. How I understood my own horses diagnosis (bearing in mind that I didn't realise that bones could become inflamed before this process) was that due to poor foot conformation the ddft was putting excess pressure on the nav bone and effectively stopping it and the bursa from doing their job of squishing and recoiling slightly. This pressure led to the inflammation and the inflammation increases the osteoblasts (or osteoclasts can't remember which one) which starts to degrade the bone and this wears the ddft which causes the pain and toes first landing which makes the cycle go round again etceteetc.... Is this a theory that I have completely made up?
 
Rooney created ddft damage with a toe first landing in dead horse legs, so it's not necessary to have bone damage.

The toe first landing can be caused by something as simple as thrush in the frog.
 
Ok so heel first landing is great twofold, firstly as it means no pain in that area and secondly coz it means that the inside structures are doing what they should be doing and shock absorbing.

Leg_end, congrats on your dressage! Fab results and I also feel pleased, relieved and victorious if we get in and out of the horsebox without a wrestling match! Really interesting re x rays and you must be over the moon. Is this one of the first prices of actual evidence of reversing 'navicular'?


Ummmm also thanks all for answering my endless questions re barefoot rehab! Although lots of what I do with my horses is technically incorrect as I am lazy, after 25 years of having horses I do generally usually have an idea about what it should be like. Changing my viewpoint re shoeing is making me feel out of my depth and fairly novice hence by thirst for information!
 
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There are now, I think, at least five sets of xrays showing navicular bone repair after a barefoot rehab.

It is high time the veterinary profession stopped telling us that navicular is a degenerative disease. That appears to be true only if you persist in trying to treat it with shoes.
 
CPtrayers, I hope this works and apologies for the rubbish photos, they are taken from vids where you can see the difference much more clearly and satisfyingly!

These stills were taken 5 weeks ago and clearly show toe first.
www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=6107&attachmentid=20904
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=6107&attachmentid=20905


These were from yesterday's video,
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=6107&attachmentid=20906
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=6107&attachmentid=20907


I am surprised in the difference! :-)
 
avthechav said:
Leg_end, congrats on your dressage! Fab results and I also feel pleased, relieved and victorious if we get in and out of the horsebox without a wrestling match! Really interesting re x rays and you must be over the moon. Is this one of the first prices of actual evidence of reversing navicular
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Thanks, he's a special boy :) We seem to have nailed the loading now *manically touches wood* and I do think it stemmed from sore feet :(

Re the X-rays - Buddy was the 5th as CPtrayes says but this is the first side by side comparisons on the blog I think. I am really pleased as its only been a year since his diagnosis so to have these results is great :)

Also, don't worry about feeling out if your depth, its a feeling that we all have! It does subside though ;)
 
cptrayes said:
I honestly believe that you can't find failures because there are so few.
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I have one.Over a year barefoot and onset of ongoing heel pain.It would seem he managed years of being shod (badly IMO) and now when trying to make things better for him by taking them off have made them worse.Ho hum that's how it goes sometimes I guess.

Still ongoing and trimmer going to attempt to trim as per vets advice and sort it out,but we will see I guess if barefoot for him is ultimately a success story or an epic fail.

He has a reasonable diet and workload mostly,and no underlying health issues.
 
No I don't think the heel pain was inevitable,and yes I do think it was caused by being barefoot (in fact I know it was but is difficult for me to admit or go into detail).

That's not to say taking him barefoot was a bad thing,it is still and always will be IMO the best option for most horses,but in his case trying to do the right thing with his feet,or what is perceived to be the right thing in terms of trim in barefoot circles was what caused the problem.

I think and I say this as a very pro barefoot person,that the whole theory and practice or barefoot is still a work in progress and there are still lessons to be learned,just as it was with farriery in the beginning I'm sure.

When we assume we have all the answers is when we stop challenging the ideas,and we're not ready for that yet with barefoot,not in my opinion and experience anyway.
 
I think the problem with shoeing or not shoeing is that you can only do what you think is right. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but hindsight is wonderful thing and you just have to look forwards. I'm my case I really wasn't happy with shoeing and I knew his feet looked wrong but didn't do anything about it until he went lame. I really hope that your horse comes out the other end and you reap the rewards of your patience. I completely agree about not assuming we know everything, but again I think you just have to deal with what you have at the time. Good luck!
 
avthechav said:
I knew his feet looked wrong but didn't do anything about it until he went lame. I really hope that your horse comes out the other end and you reap the rewards of your patience. I completely agree about not assuming we know everything, but again I think you just have to deal with what you have at the time. Good luck!
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Even worse when like with mine their feet look great,but still went lame!!

My lad will be fine I hope,if not then well he will either be buted as needed to work or shod again.
Luckily it is only mild lameness and only prevalent in certain gaits and terrain,could be worse.

Hope your situation improves and barefoot works out for you :)
 
If he continues to struggle, perhaps you should stop trimming him at all, up his work to match the rate of growth, by walking him out like a dog if need be, and let him tell you what feet he needs instead of trying to tell him.

Another cause of failure is trimming bits off the feet that the horse needs left alone. Asymmetry and flare are often there for a purpose. Backing up a long toe will lessen the surface area and put more weight into a weak heel. Horses know what foot they need to match their legs but sometimes we wrongly impose on them our idea of what a good foot looks like.

It is so difficult for owners to know who to trust, but I personally find the Rockley blog an absolute mine of detail about necessary asymmetry.
 
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OP I do think trying self trimming is worth a go.
I have one that can't manage BF .
He has a different issue to your he has a deviated leg and the farrier lamed him trying to make his foot look perfect .
I took him bf and at first things looked good his X-rays showed the bone in his feet moving back into balance .
He of course grew out the the wall damage caused by the farrier stressing the foot trying to shoe it straight .
But in time we came to realise that he would not stay comfortable in work.
I had found a good new farrier by then ( my trimmer persuaded him to take the horse on) and although the vet was wanting the horse to stay bf as the X-rays where showing clearly that the bf corrected the issue he was not comfortable .
We had a world class farrier shoe the horse with our farrier there the horse has never looked back.
In his case the BF fixed the man made issue but he seems to need the support of shoes to work.
As my trimmer said to me that's what shoes are for to help horses that need them.
I know it's a different to your horse I really did not want to give either and I have my horses in and out of shoes all the time but I felt I had failed because I could not get this one working happily without shoes.
In time I have accepted that because of his deviated leg shoes work best for him.
I hope you get yours sorted out.
 
I have a mini mare that I posted about in April this year. She has turny out front feet and her previous loaner had let them grow long. She was footy and lame on her left fore so thought I could sort that out when her feet were trimmed properly.
So I gradually took her toes back bit by bit and over the summer had to muzzle her 24/7 except for coming in for a rest and a handful of hay. She was better but still lame or most footy on the left fore.
We had about 20 yards of hard core laid in the track leading to their water and out of the field so at first she was selt trimming and I didn't trim at all for a few months but she was gradually getting footier on stones so I've had her tested for EMS and Cushings. She's 9 yo, not overweight at all and fed a little chop and Ready Mash to cover up the Meta Balance, salt and MSM. The results were borderline PPID but not EMS.
She is still very footy over stones, hence the blood tests and the vet just commented about watching the flare on the outside of her fronts. I took a little flair off and she is a little better but I feel I am experimenting with her and not seeing a lot of progress.
I think it's just a matter or trial and error, and correcting next time any trim that makes them worse.
My professional trimmer said her feet are the correct shape for her and I'm doing a good job so far. She isn't ridden much, mostly a field ornament or I lead her out for walks but not enough work to warrant shoeing, but I am puzzled as to why a mare with lovely quality hoof, never been shod should not be perfectly sound.
She is a rescue on loan from the centre so don't think I will pay for x-rays but it still would be very interesting to see what's going on inside.
I find it all fascinating and can't learn enough.
 
Muff747, have you done any mineral balancing? I'd be as unhappy as you with a mini who wasn't happy on her feet. I'm wondering if she has a particular susceptibility to excess iron or something. Or thrush? Are you certain it's the foot, I understand that minis can be prone to juvenile arthritis. Is it possible the stones are causing a problem because they are uneven?

Sorry if you've been through all this already.
 
cptrayes said:
Another cause of failure is trimming bits off the feet that the horse needs left alone. Asymmetry and flare are often there for a purpose. Backing up a long toe will lessen the surface area and put more weight into a weak heel. Horses know what foot they need to match their legs but sometimes we wrongly impose on them our idea of what a good foot looks like.
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This is what probably happened with my lad,trying to make his foot as it *should* be,we actually made him uncomfortable.

So difficult to know though what to do for the best,especially when you think you are doing what's best and then it turns out to be the worst thing for that individual :-(
 
devonlass said:
This is what probably happened with my lad,trying to make his foot as it *should* be,we actually made him uncomfortable.

So difficult to know though what to do for the best,especially when you think you are doing what's best and then it turns out to be the worst thing for that individual :-(
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10 out of 10 for being open minded and learning from it.
 
cptrayes said:
Muff747, have you done any mineral balancing? I'd be as unhappy as you with a mini who wasn't happy on her feet. I'm wondering if she has a particular susceptibility to excess iron or something. Or thrush? Are you certain it's the foot, I understand that minis can be prone to juvenile arthritis. Is it possible the stones are causing a problem because they are uneven?

Sorry if you've been through all this already.
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Hi cpt, no I haven't done the mineral balancing but apart from the land and the hay, the only iron that may be in her diet is in the Ready Fibre Mash. I only give her about a serving spoonful of that. The MB has no iron added.
Also I tried not feeding her at all for about two months when she was on grass and muzzled but there didn't seem any great difference.
I did wonder if she has ring bone because of her turny out feet, but her back legs are straight and she is still footy on those too.
Did you mean the stones are uneven or her feet? She is definitely very careful on the uneven hard core but there are small pebbles on some tarmac outside her field that cause her problems too, whether her feet are wet straight from the field or when I turn her out and they are hard and dry.
I did try taping some pads to her soles with duct tape but only had enough for her fronts, but again not a great difference on the stones so that would point to arthritis maybe?
I have treated any thrush I've seen but there is none to speak of atm and her frogs are nice and plump now with no crevice for thrush to hide in. Very puzzling.
Do you think it's worth having analysis done of the grass and hay?
 
Leg_end said:
Thanks, he's a special boy :) We seem to have nailed the loading now *manically touches wood* and I do think it stemmed from sore feet :(
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;) :)

In my experience, it's not an uncommon pattern. I also see it in horses that get bad to load/travel shortly after corrective shoeing. (Which is not to say corrective shoeing is intrinsically bad, it's just one of the questions I ask for my own information.)

I will say, though, it's not always as simple as fixing the foot pain and the loading follows with no further attention. Discomfort "trains" a horse, even if that is not our intention, and sometimes that needs conscious reversal.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. .. .
 
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