Straightness Training?

[MuddyMonster]

Isn't that what HHO is for?

Thanks for all your replies Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to start a heated discussion!

Through talking to a livery at the yard, there seems to be a biomechanic riding-classical dressage type instructor who teaches in-hand dressage stuff, not a million miles away, so will investigate that. I've also been lent a biomechanic DVD and I've only watched like 30 minutes so far, but funnily enough, even with that 30 minutes there was a marked improvement in my horse's way of going

Unfortunately, I wasn't born into a horsey family and most of my teaching so far has focused on the 'kick it to go, pull it to stop and fiddle with your reins to make it go on the bit' - my current horse has taught me that's not acceptable to him & we've made great progress and more importantly, he's much happier, but it's always interesting to see what's out there, what you can learn and take away from

 

[Cortez]

I'm not in the UK, although I do come over to compete now and again, but surely you have SOME decent trainers over there? If, as you say, you were not/are not taught the basics, what has gone wrong? Who is training the trainers? Is the BHS that far off the plot? My early training was on the continent (thankfully, I now think , but if you had a crooked horse there'd be hell to pay....

 

[MuddyMonster]

I'm sure it's like anything Cortez - there must certainly be, but I'm not sure I had exposure to them at my local, albeit approved, riding school down the road from home riding once a week. It wasn't a bad riding school by any means - in fact, it was a good school in many respects all the horses were happy with lots of turn out and well looked after with varied workloads. I'm often commented on my soft hands and so on - so it wasn't appalling by any means, I just haven't learnt the finer aspects of training a horse 'classically' there - I'm trying to play catch up now

My own instructor is more from a natural horsemanship/western riding background and I've learnt so much from them about physchology, softness, feel, getting a horse to go forwards etc. But, I'm a bit thick anyway when it comes to anything too technical and the bits about the 'classical' dressage trainers I've read or seen so far, seem quite technical, for want of a better word which has always put me off delving too deep into it. But, that's probably just me!

 

[Bernster]

I'd also echo what muddymonster says - I've def come across some of the 'kick it to go, pull it to stop, fiddle with the reins in between' school.

 

[ester]

I have a straight horse - he started off completely lacking lateral flexion.

IMO it is breaking down the more classical way of doing in hand work into an understandable way for others.

I managed to get a lesson with a more 'classical' based trainer as wanted to do more in hand work but he rarely comes this far. Been following the ST for a while, discovered I find Marijke's voice a bit irritating . A home study course for me on that sort of thing is unlikely to work and I dislike the stages a bit as it does make it seem like it is somewhat following the parelli set up.
so anyway, we have a couple of post parelli (at least they found something better to do ) ST instructors near me. I went to watch a days worth of lessons with one of them, it was very interesting and I learned a lot. Took Frank last time and it was even more interesting, as much as anything working out what he correct feeling is, and how much he can actually get his shoulders off you and just assessing movement. Even an oldie can learn new tricks .

 

[ihatework]

There is riding a straight line and then there is training your horse for straightness.

Hell, it should be easy right?! I suppose if it were then we would all be Olympic gold medalists.

I've trained a fair bit with Simon B (waves) and I suppose the way I see it in my head from the work I have done with Simon, is about the concept of lateral work and suppling exercises to correct a horses natural crookedness. But it's not about going through the list of lateral movements and ticking them off one by one so you can say 'done' now surely my horse must be straight. It's about understanding the feeling of what is going on underneath you, and what needs to be done to correct it.

Maybe I'm just a slow learner (!!) but it's taken me a surprising long time to find an instructor that has given me that additional insight.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I'm not in the UK, although I do come over to compete now and again, but surely you have SOME decent trainers over there? If, as you say, you were not/are not taught the basics, what has gone wrong? Who is training the trainers? Is the BHS that far off the plot? My early training was on the continent (thankfully, I now think , but if you had a crooked horse there'd be hell to pay....

I think I was taught well-grew up in the 70s/80s and did my training in the late 80s. I had good training for the time, had a great seat through hours of lunge lessons and gridwork with no stirrups! Don't remember ever being taught about straightness/ in hand work etc etc and definitely not in a progressive way. What I've seen alot of in lessons is 'this horse finds such and such difficult' but no way of fixing it-or the answer is always 'more forwards'.

I returned to riding in the late 90s, noone mentioned it then either. It wasn't until I went to Portugal on a riding holiday, completely chosen at random, that I was introduced to a different way of riding (and lusitanos!). I then spent 3/4 years trying to find instructors that did it where I was. There are more about now but its not the norm.

@muddymonster, you've just not found the right trainer yet-some of them speak in tongues

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm not in the UK, although I do come over to compete now and again, but surely you have SOME decent trainers over there? If, as you say, you were not/are not taught the basics, what has gone wrong? Who is training the trainers? Is the BHS that far off the plot? My early training was on the continent (thankfully, I now think , but if you had a crooked horse there'd be hell to pay....

I know two in my area who I trust. I know far more who I will not train with under any circumstances (either because they have no skills themselves, or because they don't adhere to biomechanic and classical principles, or because they're the fluffy neoclassicalists who think a horse should be trotting around like a giraffe). I can think of about a dozen of these (a good few are AIs). There are many more instructors who I have no experience of, but I'd imagine they fall into similar proportions of competence :eek3:

 

[Wheels]

Cortez it's a while since I did my bhs exams but I doubt that much has changed. Certainly then a BHSAI would not learn how to do many of the lateral exercises (probably leg yield, possibly shoulder in) either ridden or in hand I'm not sure what happens at stage 4 onwards though

 

[Simon Battram]

but surely you have SOME decent trainers over there? If, as you say, you were not/are not taught the basics, what has gone wrong? Who is training the trainers? Is the BHS that far off the plot? My early training was on the continent (thankfully, I now think , but if you had a crooked horse there'd be hell to pay....

The BHS exams are great at giving a person a basic grounding in all equine aspects. In fact this is the reason that after taking the II I did not go any further because I felt it was a little bit of a Jack of All Trades and I thought at least, by the next level of I you should be able to specialise but no. So I went to Germany and learnt more in two years than I ever did in the UK. OK, my trainer was an ex Chief Rider from the Spanish Riding School, but this is where I learnt to properly train a horse/rider. I had never heard of in-hand work and this is another aspect he taught me and I brought this back 25 years ago. In fact there are very few of us that actually really use the in-hand work as a day to day tool over here in the UK.

 

[Simon Battram]

There is riding a straight line and then there is training your horse for straightness.

Absolutely!

I've trained a fair bit with Simon B (waves) and I suppose the way I see it in my head from the work I have done with Simon, is about the concept of lateral work and suppling exercises to correct a horses natural crookedness. But it's not about going through the list of lateral movements and ticking them off one by one so you can say 'done' now surely my horse must be straight. It's about understanding the feeling of what is going on underneath you, and what needs to be done to correct it.

'Waves' back. Well said.

I personally think that too many riders learn things as if from a list, and this goes for the Scales of Training as well. Leg yield, yes tick, shoulder-in, yes tick as if this was bread and milk on a shopping list.

There are 3 aspects to an exercise or movement:
1. Teaching the horse the theme
2. Improving the theme
3. Using the theme to improve the training of the horse.

I am still astounded at how many crooked horses I see at competitions, at various levels, with horses tight, stiff out of balance and then movements being ridden on auto pilot. The amount of riders that 'get after' their horse because it is not doing X, Y or Z but not having a clue that the horse cannot do X, Y or Z because they are crooked and out of balance. Things like head tilting, tongue out to the side, falling in, drifting out, wrong canter strike off, lack of leg yield one way compared to the other - are all potentially due to crookedness / lack of straightness.

The Germans use a term - lossgelassenheit. It has no direct translation into English but essentially it means the moving forwards in a supple and easy manner without constraint. This is achieved at the start of the young horses training. However to achieve this the horse must have, as the trainers on the continent full well know, a basic level of straightness to release both sides of the body evenly in order for this to happen. Straightness cannot be / must not be left until just before collection. No horse will effectively be trained this way and as long as the Scales of Training are given the hype they are we will continue to see stiff, wooden, crooked horses moving up through the levels.

 

[YasandCrystal]

If I saw this scenario, with a horse rejecting and complaining so obviously to what is being asked then I would sincerely question what the teacher was asking the horse to do.....

Well actually Simon he was only objecting because it's clearly easier for him to bowl along on the forehand. He's a clever horse and after this one session the penny dropped and he hasn't objected to a straight neck since. Patrice is very intuitive, her knowledge and experience is second to none.

 

[EQUIDAE]

Well actually Simon he was only objecting because it's clearly easier for him to bowl along on the forehand. He's a clever horse and after this one session the penny dropped and he hasn't objected to a straight neck since. Patrice is very intuitive, her knowledge and experience is second to none.

I agree with this. I've started Enlightened Equitation lessons which is also classical principles and have found that my mare immediately started to work better. As soon as a you up the training it is hard work and she objected - no more than I did myself to be honest at being made to use my core muscles.

I've looked into St but found all the talk of angles of the leg etc too much to concentrate on when trying to ride too. I found EE just made sense. I did what I was instructed and it worked, and worked immediately.

The Enlightened Equitation book is free on Heather's website right now - hardback book with hundreds of colour photos

eta - EE is French school.

 

[ester]

Heather's posts on here put me off ever going there

 

[EQUIDAE]

Heather's posts on here put me off ever going there

How.come? I've never found her anything other than pleasant.

 

[JFTDWS]

Heather's posts on here put me off ever going there

Aye me too!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Heather's posts on here put me off ever going there

what she teaches wrt seat is invaluable-won't comment on anything else.

 

[Goldenstar]

Absolutely!



'Waves' back. Well said.

I personally think that too many riders learn things as if from a list, and this goes for the Scales of Training as well. Leg yield, yes tick, shoulder-in, yes tick as if this was bread and milk on a shopping list.

There are 3 aspects to an exercise or movement:
1. Teaching the horse the theme
2. Improving the theme
3. Using the theme to improve the training of the horse.

I am still astounded at how many crooked horses I see at competitions, at various levels, with horses tight, stiff out of balance and then movements being ridden on auto pilot. The amount of riders that 'get after' their horse because it is not doing X, Y or Z but not having a clue that the horse cannot do X, Y or Z because they are crooked and out of balance. Things like head tilting, tongue out to the side, falling in, drifting out, wrong canter strike off, lack of leg yield one way compared to the other - are all potentially due to crookedness / lack of straightness.

The Germans use a term - lossgelassenheit. It has no direct translation into English but essentially it means the moving forwards in a supple and easy manner without constraint. This is achieved at the start of the young horses training. However to achieve this the horse must have, as the trainers on the continent full well know, a basic level of straightness to release both sides of the body evenly in order for this to happen. Straightness cannot be / must not be left until just before collection. No horse will effectively be trained this way and as long as the Scales of Training are given the hype they are we will continue to see stiff, wooden, crooked horses moving up through the levels.

Lossgellassenheit , I was taught ( by a German ) that this means the horse gives himself up freely to be worked and it was a mental as well as a physical so more than suppleness and evenness but the horse being easy in his mind with the work
I think I was taught quite differently about the scales to what people seem to be thinking on here .
I must have been very fortunate when I was young .

 

[Simon Battram]

Lossgellassenheit , I was taught ( by a German ) that this means the horse gives himself up freely to be worked and it was a mental as well as a physical so more than suppleness and evenness but the horse being easy in his mind with the work

Agreed, in training there is always the physical and mental aspects.

 

[tallyho!]

I have a straight horse - he started off completely lacking lateral flexion.

Lacking flexion where?