strange behaviour- is she trying it on?

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4redheadmares

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ive recently had some saddle issues which are now hopefully resolved..my mare over the past few months behaviour has changed, she was girthy with previous saddle but that has now seemed to stop, she is sound and always been sound, regular chiro/physio etc, basically when i get on in arena or on yard she holds herself abit rigid, then when you put your leg on she sometimes does like a mini buck and front feet off the floor in a reaction to this then backs off rather than walking away forward, she also naps towards the gate, after 5/10 mins she settles and is fine has anyone had any experiance like this? im thinking will get better as she realises not in old saddle? we had a few canter issues where she will back off in the canter so have now started to build the canter work back up. shes quite a clever mare and knows that if she can make me a bit nervous i will get off. she lunges perfectly and long reins perfectly, she doesnt seem to do any of this behaviour if we are going out for a hack or if we go jumping so im torn between her basically just being a clever mare??
 
Difficult one. People way more qualified than me might find it hard to know if it is real or remembered pain or more just a habit now. May be worth trying what happens if you walk her round for a few mins in hand before mounting so any wrinkles can ease out and she can recognise it is the 'good' saddle? The thing with discounting it because of different behaviour hacking/jumping is that it genuinely could be the different way of working in the school (more bends and turns than hacking for example and less of the adrenaline high of jumping) making schooling more uncomfortable for her either currently or in the past. Do you have an instructor or YO or someone who could observe in person?
 
she literally just does it for 5 mins if that even if i lunge her prior to getting on, my instructor saysits like she doesnt want to move her front feet sometimes but as soon as we walk away and move around shes ok
 
What is she like without the saddle on? (With instructor on-board if you're not confident enough to try bareback...) If instructor thinks mare has an issue with not wanting to move her front feet, which isn't resolved by removing the saddle from the situation, (not to say new one doesn't fit, but it sounds as though mare has never yet been totally happy in it), I'm afraid that sounds like vet-time to me. Then possibly find someone to go through a 're-backing' process with her (albeit faster than the first time) to 'reset' the behaviour?
 
so another example is last night i ode, before i got on i walked in hand over poles for ten mins, i got on with a mounting block, she walked away and i put her on the poles straight away walking as she then concentrates on them rather than me, she was ok but when i went into trot at the same place on the circle (opposite the gate) she trys to nap by backing off and falling through the left shoulder if i correct it she then gets on with what i want and we actually had a nice schooling session....this is why i think she is now just trying it on?
 
i am also not ruling out ulcers as if the old saddle has done some damage this may be a secondary thing from that, she is currently fed on low sugar "ulcer type" diet any way and i give her a ulcer supplement.
 
I frequently ask myself the same sort of question... and the trouble with vague resistance like this is you just can't and don't know. So my tendency is to make sure all the basic checks have been done (tack, back, teeth etc) then just crack on and work through. My reasoning is it will either get better or get worse which will then give me the information I need to know what the issue is/was.
 
every thing has been checked and saddler coming tomorrow, the main thing that makes me think shes trying it on is if we go to another arena to jump or just go out for a hack she doesn't behave like that at all
 
If she has just learned that evasions mean you back off then ignoring the behaviour and just working through will probably sort it out. If there is another problem, work will probably make it worse! Either way you will find out. There are 101 reasons why horses do x, y, z.... I am all for listening to the horse and trying to understand what he/she is communicating but you can drive yourself nuts too if you try to work it all out and never really find out anyway! (I speak from experience!!)

Example: My daughter's pony Max started rearing and we discovered his mouth was very sore due to poor dental treatment. (He was not overdue it had just been done very badly). Once the mouth issue was addressed he carried on rearing as he had learned she got off when he went up. So very quickly a pain-related behaviour turned into a learned behaviour and he would go up the minute her bum hit the saddle. A few sessions with a trainer or with me riding him through and ignoring the behaviour and he stopped. Never to repeat it. If it hadn't stopped I would have needed to go to Plan C or D or Z but there is a place for just getting on with it, I think, even if you aren't 100% sure what is going on. Just stay open minded while you work through.

Another example: Amber went through a phase of bucking in canter transitions. Tack and back fine. I ignored her and it stopped. Still don't really know what that was about other than she is weak behind and it was hard work for her. Now she is stronger it is less hard work so she is happier to transition up. I believe horses are communication personified. How they behave is how they feel in that moment. They aren't capable of pretence. So I never take evasions personally (or I try not to) but sometimes 'I don't want to' just means 'I don't want to' not 'I am in pain, I can't cope I am overwhelmed, I am scared' or whatever.

And sometimes the answer to 'I don't want to' is 'tough!'.
 
As with anything with horses, its often a process of elimination to find your answer.
When you see she doesn't do it when you go hacking or jumping, does she stop doing it when you say head off on your hacking route? Because obviously if you mount in the same place, she obviously won't know if you are hacking or you go in the school until you head that way.

Sometimes low grade pain can cause this sort of reaction, so if there is nothing obvious and saddle, back etc have been checked, is there a possibility of a bilateral lameness that is difficult to detect?

The fact she doesn't do this on the lunge makes me suspect it's a reaction either to weight on her back or pressure on her sides (ulcers?).

Im not a great believer in horses trying things on, but I do believe in learned behaviour (some would argue this is the same thing).

It does sound like she is very nappy though, so her protests could be a form of napping. Does she behave this way for anyone else?
 
i love your reply thankyou, i think its time to crack on (maybe literally) i am a big softy when it comes to this mare i think any other horse i would of got on with it by now and like you say it will either get worse or better. ive gone out of my way to check absolutely everything is OK so i am gong to just continue and ignore the bad like you say and praise the good, will keep schooling short and sweet until build her up bit more as had time off in between saddles chiro etc, it doesnt help that this mare i had a very bad accident on so i naturally back off now where really i should be more positive. i do think that the saddle was a massive issue but now it should not be...wish me luck!!
 
scats said:
Im not a great believer in horses trying things on, but I do believe in learned behaviour (some would argue this is the same thing).
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I spent years arguing that horses weren't capable of 'trying it on' then I decided that when people said 'trying it on' it basically meant the same as learned behaviour. So I stopped arguing about it. The main difference I think is in not taking it personally or getting annoyed. Horses do what works. If learned evasions work then that's the rider's fault, basically. Horses are just being horses.
 
she actually did the same with my partner but he doesn't take her on so she soon stops pratting about.. she does feed off what mood im in, if i go hacking i get on in a different place and not in the arena and just ride away no problem
 
4redheadmares said:
she actually did the same with my partner but he doesn't take her on so she soon stops pratting about.. she does feed off what mood im in, if i go hacking i get on in a different place and not in the arena and just ride away no problem
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Just out of curiosity, could you mount in that place you do for hacking, then head to the school? Just to see if she kicks off when she realises where she's going.
 
she soon starts messing about when turn back around to go in arena

update...

had a saddle fitter out yesterday who i must say was AMAZING in 18 years i have NEVER seen anyone fit a saddle so in depth he was brill...after refitting an albion i bought for her few weeks a ago i rode in the school and i don't know whether i was so determined that she didn't make me look like a muppet she actually rode away really nicely so now im going to go with shes basically taking the mick until i see otherwise. i now have peace of mind that saddle fits and also purcased new prolite girth she seemed to go really well in so will see how she goes
 
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