Strange hindlimb lameness - new development....

madhector

madhector

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I posted a week ago about a horse that started holding a leg up in trot (bit like a terrier!) He did it for a few strides and then returned to normal, done it on both legs. He is sound in most peoples eyes behind, but I dont think he is 100% but I am very picky..


Anyway, owner wasnt keen on having it investigated yet, and wanted me to work him more to see if it got worse/better.


The good news is he seems to be doing it less, the bad news is he now has other symptoms. If you go sitting in trot whilst on the right rein he either bucks or goes up and down. In canter if you stand out of the saddle he is fine, but as soon as you sit into it he goes up and down on the spot, and either bucks or just doesnt go forwards. With lots of encouragement he will canter on but it isnt right.


If you get deep inside flexion on the right rein he loses it too.


Owner isnt keen on investigating, and wants him to be worked through it, which I dont think is possible. My next plan was to give him some bute and see if that makes any difference at all, then at least we know if it is actual pain related or just mechanical...


Any ideas? He had his back done but it made no difference, he was a bit tight but fine now.


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Sounds like kissing spine to me
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This is Buzz, right? If I recall correctly, he's quite short coupled but not very strong behind? Bucking/rearing/back problems would book me a one way ticket to the vet to rule it out before I spent any more money or time on the horse. I'd be pointing out to the owner that if the horse isn't right, it will be difficult to sell on and therefore worth getting to the bottom of now.
 
that sounds like a vet requirement!!!
I know the owner wants to work through it, but if it is causing distress or pain to the horse its right to get a vet out, maybe even scans or something done.......
 
I would get a vet out. Billateral hind limb lameness can be impossible to see unless one leg is nerve blocked, or it could be something in the back. When he held out a leg was it straight, as in locked at the stiffle, or bent and up (if you see what I mean)? If it was straight, I had a horse like that who turned out to have OCD on both stiffles. He was winning affiliated elementary and no one had noticed he was lame bilaterally!
 
Nothing to add to above but if the owner wont get it investigated, the only thing you can do is take several big steps back with him and start right at the basics so that he has time to really build up strength/muscle/and balance. The reactions your describing * can * sometimes be the reactions of a young weak horse that has been brought up and together too quickly and has been asked for too much too soon ( not in any way saying its your fault as I know the owner wants it out and competing)
I would just do some trotting around on a loose rein for several months- not really asking for any contact/engagement at all, canter standing up in stirrups, lots of hacking, limited schooling and lots of work walking over raised poles just to try and build him up a bit at basic level, if that makes sense. Then gradually over time start to take up a contact and ask for *tiny*increasing amounts of engagement on a month to month basis. Wether the owner will allow you to give him that sort of time wiith him will be another battle ! And wether he will be 'better' after all that, remains to be seen of course !
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I agree he shows all the signs of a horse with something painful.
But, like O_B has suggested, if he's young and immature and maybe has a bit of attitude then it could be possible that he is being a bit difficult about not very much and he needs strengthening and time. I'd go back to just having forwards- no demands for an outline, no jumping, no tight turns/circles- just let him be a very green baby horse for a month or so and see how he takes it when there's less pressure on him.
 
Any way you can get a vid for us MH?
From your first post my gut reaction was neurological (which isn't always a death sentence, look at LPP's Arthur!), but I kept schtum at the time because I hoped it wasn't so.

FWIW, my Wobbler mare started out sound, but just 'not right' behind. Increasingly, over the period of 18months or so, she started to mis-step behind, find it difficult (and eventually impossible) to canter and couldn't accept me sitting at all.
There were 100 other little symptoms too, but it was very hard to get her diagnosed - I had to take her to a neuro specialist in the end because I was determined it was a neurological issue and my usual vets had ruled it out and were telling me I was mad
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Owner isnt keen on investigating, and wants him to be worked through it, which I dont think is possible. My next plan was to give him some bute and see if that makes any difference at all, then at least we know if it is actual pain related or just mechanical...

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In your position MH I would have to tell the owner that I wasn't prepared to ride the horse until further investigations had been done.

You are a professional, and the owner should have the curtousy of treating you as such.

I certainly woulnd't be buteing it ether.
 
I thought about that a lot - and to be honest I am really not sure that is it. I haven't really pushed him that hard (not as hard as his owner would like!) and have taken it very easy with him, only schooling him for 15/20 minutes at a time and then hacking out as he was so weak. He has built up alot in front but his quarters still look awful, so really think there is something more sinister going on there. He is very very genuine and doesn't 'play up' so to speak but I did wonder whether I was being too nice and not riding him through it as I thought there was an underlying problem.

So I asked my trainer to come and have a look today and she agreed that he wasn't 'right' but also that he wasn't lame enough for most people to notice. She had a sit after me and had the same problems, and agreed that he wasn't being at all difficult (my gut feeling) and when she was riding him I didn't think he looked at all right behind. We lunged him and he didn't look half as bad.


I cannot carry on working him like that, this last week I have been sitting on him for 5 minutes and then getting off as he just wasn't feeling happy. Today confirmed my suspicions.

Poor little fella, if he was mine and insured he would be investigated immediately
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The bute would be purely to find out it he was actually in pain, and then at least I could go to the owner and say he comes right on bute therefore there is something really seriously wrong....

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Yes, but you shouldn't have to do that - you are the person they are paying to bring on/school this horse. You know if it's sound or not - you don't need the bute to prove the point.

Do you want owners like this?

Sorry, but I feel very strongly about it. If they don't trust your judgement - they shouldn't have given you the horse.

Would they tell Pippa Funnell they were imagining it???
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They believe he isnt right, they just dont aggree with the next step....

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Ah, the old fingers crossed approach may work for them then.

Sorry MH - not in a great mood and these sort of posts just serve to make it worse. They sound like muppets.

Good luck with them.
 
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The bute would be purely to find out it he was actually in pain, and then at least I could go to the owner and say he comes right on bute therefore there is something really seriously wrong....

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I actually think this is a very sensible idea and one that your vet would probably suggest anyway. It will probably confirm your gut feeling and then give you a base from which to work from next when talking to owner and vet.
 
Hi just to add that I agree with most of the above. My horse had KS which this could be, or 101 other things, think I would be wanting vet investigation.

It took a really long time to diagnose Ryan partly because of my inexperience as I faffed around a lot knowing something was wrong and not wanting it to be serious and also because he was bi-laterally lame behind, he looked sound, just stiff and short in his stride and vets took 2 yrs to dianose as we had to bring him on a bit for the work to show up where he was struggling.

Does the horse get upset about going down short sharp hills on a hack or work well for 20mins then flip? Ryan became gradually worse as he started expecting pain and took action to avoid it before it happened so his behaviour became worse and worse. By the time he was diagnosed he was a really unpleasant horse to deal with.

I would tell the owners that unless they want the horse to have mental issues about its work which I think can be harder to crack than the physical ones, they would be better off taking a vets advice now or they could have a much longer term problem to deal with - might be a get out clause for you too, you have your reputation to consider!
 
Sorry this may be sound a little patronising but has anybody checked the saddle they cause more problems than people think a lot cheaper to fix than a visit to newmarket.We have a six year old who was doing exactly this a year ago .
I would get a equine physio to have a look as well they can tell a lot from just the muscle tension in the back.
At this stage I would not worry about the more extreme diagnosis that have been mentioned as quite honestly they are still very rare although kissing spine is the latest fashion in Newmarket
It sounds more likely to be weakness and an ill fitting saddle try some excersises to stretch and strengthen his back.
The horse I mentioned is now perfectly normal and infact won a BE event 2 weeks ago only her second ever outing cross country.It took a whole 12 months to get her to that stage .
I have to be careful here but what saddle are you using some horses are not suited to the likes of a devecoux or antares as the tree pinches just behind the withers .
 
A bute test is by no ways a reliable test of pain.

Different horses and different conditions respond in different ways and it will not mask or reduce some types of pain.

If the test is positive and the horse stops behaving that way on bute then great and you know for certain it is pain related, however if it makes no difference you cannot rule out that the horse is uncomfortable or in pain and assume they are just being difficult.
 
As above. Bute is not a substantial or all encompassing pain reliever that will mask anything, no more than popping a few ibuprofen would make someone with a serious injury sound. Also, many physical issues also involve a mechanical component as well as pain.

To be frank, if the owners refuse to investigate you have two options really, ride the horse or don't ride the horse. How you proceed has as much to do with the business/reputation/personal comfort level side of it as the actual horse. That may sound harsh but from what you've said the owners are clear on how they want to proceed. Give them the benefit of your professional experience and then you'll have to decide on your own terms.

Does it suck to think a horse hurts/is confused/can't cope but no one's going to do anything about it? Yes. Tell me about it. Unfortunately, it's a fact of professional life. You just have to deal with it on a case by case basis.

I can say though, often people have surprised me. People who categorically deny there could be a physical issue sometimes just need a bit of time. After all, who wants to admit they may have been ignoring a horse in pain?
 
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