Strangest question I have ever asked

LHIS

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Afternoon all,
I have posted a few times about my travelling woes with my otherwise perfect pony. In brief - for those who aren’t familiar - fine in company but kicks off alone, to all intent and purpose it appears to be anxiety being alone.
I’ve had a professional out who got him loading well (though he loaded ok anyway), travelled in the trailer with him to see if it was balance/fitness related - no issues there.
Have done lots of practise with him - but the loading isn’t the issue, it’s remaining calm once loaded and throughout the journey. He kicks, stamps and rears.

Is it stark raving mad to be looking at life size pony mannequins (I’m thinking Shetland size) to be his ‘travelling companion’? Said companion would be secured safely.

I’m running out of ideas, and do need to travel to get any decent riding done as I cannot ride from where we live safely, or for anything other than a walk up the 60mph road and back (not fun for either of us).

As always I am open to suggestions, please, and thoughts on this seemingly mad idea.
 

LHIS

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Tried plugging his ears in case it's noise related?

Tbh once you've exhausted all the normal advice then life sized fake horses seem pretty rational really!
Ear bonnet or good old fashioned cotton wool? Haven’t tried this and I’m open to trying most things. My trailer is pretty noisy - it’s a 505 classic.
 

Michen

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Have a look at my threads. I had the worst traveller, even the pro had never come across one so bad. He’s now angelic to travel in any situation but it took a lot of hard work! Lots of advice on the threads I started about it.
 

PapaverFollis

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The horse mannequins retailers use are surprisingly expensive! Especially if it doesn't work. But not as expensive as buying a real life companion. I'm going to guess they wouldn't be keen (due to the expense of them) but is there an equestrian retailer nearby that has a mannequin you could borrow to try? You could put a fleece on it that had been on his favourite friend at the yard overnight so it smelled right!

It might be worth hiring different modes of transport to try to?
 

Tiddlypom

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My trailer is pretty noisy - it’s a 505 classic.
In what way noisy? Have you travelled in it? I ask because my 510 classic used to rattle really loudly, it was metal on metal and horrendous. We sorted it by adding draught proofing tape to the rear ramp doors, and cycle inner tube to the clip at the top of the central partition pole. It's much quieter now :).

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JillA

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Sounds to me like separation anxiety, and the tried and tested means of treating that is to start small and build the time they are alone, so they learn, before the adrenaline kicks in, they will get back to their company. What is he like with another equine in the trailer with him? IME they aren't easily fooled by dummies - can you move him up the road and back and then round the block etc, in increments so he can learn? If he kicks off as soon as he is loaded build the time in the trailer by increments too.
 

LHIS

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Sounds to me like separation anxiety, and the tried and tested means of treating that is to start small and build the time they are alone, so they learn, before the adrenaline kicks in, they will get back to their company. What is he like with another equine in the trailer with him? IME they aren't easily fooled by dummies - can you move him up the road and back and then round the block etc, in increments so he can learn? If he kicks off as soon as he is loaded build the time in the trailer by increments too.
Thank you - I agree I think it is anxiety being alone.
He’s fine in company, lamb-like. My aim is to build him up on short journeys, but my issue right now is that I can’t even get him to stand in the trailer for more than a minute (at best) before he starts. His cue for starting with the antics is the bars going into place and ramps going up.
I’ll be honest - the behaviour unnerves me and therefore I know I am not helping, in fact probably the exact opposite.
 

LHIS

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In what way noisy? Have you travelled in it? I ask because my 510 classic used to rattle really loudly, it was metal on metal and horrendous. We sorted it by adding draught proofing tape to the rear ramp doors, and cycle inner tube to the clip at the top of the central partition pole. It's much quieter now :).

View attachment 31382
That’s a great idea thank you - I’ll do this. It rattles in the metal on metal way you say.
 

LHIS

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It’s probably been asked before, but have you ever tried him in a lorry?
Only in company, he was fine.
I could hire one and try I suppose, though I suspect it will be a waste of £80 or whatever it costs to hire a 3.5 tonner. Plus if it is separation anxiety would that make a difference?
 

JillA

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Thank you - I agree I think it is anxiety being alone.
He’s fine in company, lamb-like. My aim is to build him up on short journeys, but my issue right now is that I can’t even get him to stand in the trailer for more than a minute (at best) before he starts. His cue for starting with the antics is the bars going into place and ramps going up.
I’ll be honest - the behaviour unnerves me and therefore I know I am not helping, in fact probably the exact opposite.

Have you any experience with negative reinforcement? Reward him ceasing the behaviour, in other words find a tiny window of ceasing the tantrums and remove him INSTANTLY, let him think he can get what he wants by being stopping. Won't be easy but load him, and unload him if he is quiet. Do up the breast bar, wait until he is quiet then unload. Ditto the breeching bar, train yourself to look for any tiny pause and then "Good boy" and unload. Once he has the idea I think the pauses will come faster and faster. My guess is up to now you have unloaded him when he is having a tantrum, which is what most people would do.
Mark Rashid points out that as prey animals horses are hard wired not to waste energy unnecessarily, so being quiet, if it gets rewarded by what he wants, is his default action. Timing is vital though. Worth a try, you can't carry on as things are
 

LHIS

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Have you any experience with negative reinforcement? Reward him ceasing the behaviour, in other words find a tiny window of ceasing the tantrums and remove him INSTANTLY, let him think he can get what he wants by being stopping. Won't be easy but load him, and unload him if he is quiet. Do up the breast bar, wait until he is quiet then unload. Ditto the breeching bar, train yourself to look for any tiny pause and then "Good boy" and unload. Once he has the idea I think the pauses will come faster and faster. My guess is up to now you have unloaded him when he is having a tantrum, which is what most people would do.
Mark Rashid points out that as prey animals horses are hard wired not to waste energy unnecessarily, so being quiet, if it gets rewarded by what he wants, is his default action. Timing is vital though. Worth a try, you can't carry on as things are
I’ll look this up - but it makes sense to me what you’re saying, though is not the ‘natural’ thing I think of first.
I have taken him off the trailer when he’s kicked off because it’s bloody scary and I don’t want him hurt himself - though totally agree this says to him ‘act like a loon and you’ll get what you want’.
I desperately want to try and help him but I really feel out of my comfort zone trying to do it by myself.
 

Red-1

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I’ll look this up - but it makes sense to me what you’re saying, though is not the ‘natural’ thing I think of first.
I have taken him off the trailer when he’s kicked off because it’s bloody scary and I don’t want him hurt himself - though totally agree this says to him ‘act like a loon and you’ll get what you want’.
I desperately want to try and help him but I really feel out of my comfort zone trying to do it by myself.

In that case I would get help. Richard Maxwell is good.

I have done what Jill A says, on and off without stopping, then a brief pause, then a slightly longer pause etc etc until we manage up to half an hour etc. You know you have a turning point when they think about kicking off, but then relax enough to eat. They learn that to get off all they have to do is stand still for a while. Be aware though that at some stage you will make a mistake and at that point you can't take them off or they revert to thinking that kicking off means they get taken off.

I have been lucky that for most of the horses that came to me for this, I had a dirty great HGV box to let them work it out in if I had a mis-time. It is not quite as straightforward with a trailer with a breast bar.

I have done it with trailer and breast bar, but unlike a big box where you can cross tie and let them play it out, you have to be a lot more in their face to prevent them going over the bar and getting stuck. With a trailer and breast bar I make double sure they understand to step back, so we will go on and off the trailer via the back ramp only. Also have the kit to remove the breast bar handy in case. Also help at hand in case it goes wrong, hats, gloves etc. I hold a schooling whip and use a bit headstall. You still try the on/off before they are anxious but if you get the timing wrong you have to step up and give direction, such as step back, step side, step forwards etc until they get back into their heads. This is a job for a confident expert. Either way, they only get off once they are quiet.
 
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Shay

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Are you able to send him to a pro for schooling? As you say - he scares you (and entirely understandably!!). Your fear re-emforces his eprception that being alone and shut in a box is scary. You reward him for making a fuss when you take him off.
 

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I have had issues with mine, he travelled fine in a lorry on his own...he would occasionally stamp when we stopped in traffic but nothing too bad. The a couple of years a go I lost my older horse and he became difficult to travel on his own but would be foot perfect in company. After trying various different things I can now travel him on his own in a trailer, but only without the partition and in the lorry I have positioned the partitions so he is more herringbone with his bum to the front, he has haylage now when travelling and whilst not perfect, on saturday he travelled an hour, didn't move much and wasn't sweaty. I have a camera in my lorry so I could see what he was doing and could also feel him when he was getting agitated! He would always load perfectly when on his own.
 

mandyroberts

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I met someone who had overcome this by removing the partition and travelling the horse facing backwards. and putting a windon in the ramp and having a radio on. You need to have fittings so you can attach the breast bar to the rear of the trailer and you do need front unload
 

LHIS

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Are you able to send him to a pro for schooling? As you say - he scares you (and entirely understandably!!). Your fear re-emforces his eprception that being alone and shut in a box is scary. You reward him for making a fuss when you take him off.
I could, though don’t know who I could turn to in my area. I’m in Lancashire if anyone can recommend anyone.
 

Identityincrisis

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My boy was horrendous, I couldn't load him for 3 years never mind travel him! In desperation I got Richard Maxwell out who loaded him and transformed his loading, problem solved.... I thought!! First trip in the trailer ended in disaster 100 yards from setting off. I heard the biggest banging and went to investigate to find a gaping hole in the side of my trailer. He had gone UNDER the breast bar and was pinned there by the bar. I thought that was the end of him, never mind travelling him!!

Over the course of about 10 weeks I sedated him, gradually increased the travel distance (100 yards to begin) and decrease the sedation, it was several weeks before I could actually breathe and not cry while travelling him!!

I now have a pretty good traveller (touch wood!) I know it won't be to everyone's liking but it was our very last chance at the end of a very long road
 

bubsqueaks

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Yes I too sedated mine with Sedalin for a while as above which just took the edge of her & me - I use Bach flower remedy!
I also purchased an equi travel safe as she climbed onto breast bar but you cant use this in a trailer.
Ours too was fine in company but it was the travelling alone that made her anxious.
We also have a camera so we can see her at all times which reassures me!
Fitted a mirror but not a jot of difference.
Your horse will be picking up on your stress so will be making things worse & I know only too well it becomes a vicious circle so outside help is worthwhile.
What about feeding him in the trailer everyday & then closing ramp etc etc
I always give mine lovely haylage whilst travelling.
Good luck you have my every empathy as its my pet hate so understand only too well how debilitating it is to you. But also its so worth persevering as you have to consider what you would do if you had an emergency & needed to get horse to the vet.
 

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You could try making your trailer a nicer place to be. No partition, padded breast/breech bars (get a full width one made up). I recently changed from hard rubber mats to 2 inch thick EVA mats, which seems to really help. I think they damp the movement and sound - my previously bad loader now travels like this munching his net and totally chilled. 2 standard size mats (6x4) did all but the very nose of my trailer, which I have just filled with the nose section of the original rubber mat.
 

LHIS

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You could try making your trailer a nicer place to be. No partition, padded breast/breech bars (get a full width one made up). I recently changed from hard rubber mats to 2 inch thick EVA mats, which seems to really help. I think they damp the movement and sound - my previously bad loader now travels like this munching his net and totally chilled. 2 standard size mats (6x4) did all but the very nose of my trailer, which I have just filled with the nose section of the original rubber mat.
Thank you - I have got the padded covers for the bars front and back, partition out already. I have some EVA mats so I’ll try that thank you.
 

Cinnamontoast

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I could hire one and try I suppose, though I suspect it will be a waste of £80 or whatever it costs to hire a 3.5 tonner.


But an awful lot cheaper than a life size horse mannequin! Probably a lot cheaper than an expert, although I think it's a good idea to get someone out.

Not joking here, how about introducing a goat? I saw someone who had one and it went to all the shows with her and her horse!
 

Lyle

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Have you any experience with negative reinforcement? Reward him ceasing the behaviour, in other words find a tiny window of ceasing the tantrums and remove him INSTANTLY, let him think he can get what he wants by being stopping. Won't be easy but load him, and unload him if he is quiet. Do up the breast bar, wait until he is quiet then unload. Ditto the breeching bar, train yourself to look for any tiny pause and then "Good boy" and unload. Once he has the idea I think the pauses will come faster and faster. My guess is up to now you have unloaded him when he is having a tantrum, which is what most people would do.
Mark Rashid points out that as prey animals horses are hard wired not to waste energy unnecessarily, so being quiet, if it gets rewarded by what he wants, is his default action. Timing is vital though. Worth a try, you can't carry on as things are

This concept of removing the 'pressure' when the horse shows a moment of 'relaxation' works really well. It can be done for training all sorts of things, handling legs/ears, introducing hoses/clippers etc. The horse may initially be worried and move, in which case you quietly persist with the 'pressure' stimulus until they stop moving and show a sign of relaxation or submission such as blinking, licking lips etc.
It might be worth looking into methods to teach him the ropes using groundwork before trying this technique on the trailer. It might sound strange, but even doing desentising with a plastic bag to teach him the system that the pressure won't leave until he stops.

Does he show anxiety in any other situations? for example walking away out of sight from an area with other horses?
 
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