Strangles - tell me all

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Ok I'll ditch them. Thanks. They haven't actually gone near the haynets yet as there is still lots of grass but I'll bin them anyway. Can dirty haynets reinfect the same horses or is the concern with contaminating my clothes?

Once they have had the disease they should be immune, for some unknown time, if they have not used the nets, soak them in Jeyes fluid for a few days, but to be honest use as little equipment as you can and don't go near them!
Danger is contaminating your clothes, it was how my horse got it, as I was looking after a pony who had it, but this was before anyone knew ........... well before anyone mentioned it!
If they are out and getting hay all you need to is throw hay over the fence I would not bother with buckets unless there is no other way. They will not die if they have plenty of grass.

 

[Spring Feather]

Why would the vet put the horses on antibiotics? I've dealt with strangles outbreaks a few times in my life, never have I put any horses on antibiotics as they can cause more problems than they solve. There is a time and a place for antibiotics, for a bog-standard strangles case that isn't the time imo. Povidone iodine is easily the best tool to have in your kit and it is multi-use. As is Virkon and you should have trays filled with this so as not to contaminate elsewhere.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

a rescue with no quarantine facilities?

All rescue centres are full to overflow, this is overflow.

It is amazing how these things happen: the rescue centre have decided to support these animals and to use a local field for them, the other option might have been to shoot them, OP obviously does not want that, it is her choice.

 

[fburton]

If I remember right, antibiotics are indicated in the "barsteward" stage, but not when only the head/neck lymph nodes are swollen.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Why would the vet put the horses on antibiotics? I've dealt with strangles outbreaks a few times in my life, never have I put any horses on antibiotics as they can cause more problems than they solve. There is a time and a place for antibiotics, for a bog-standard strangles case that isn't the time imo. Povidone iodine is easily the best tool to have in your kit and it is multi-use. As is Virkon and you should have trays filled with this so as not to contaminate elsewhere.

Read the post , the vet gave those with pneumonia antibiotics.

 

[MiniMilton]

who legally owns the horses?

very irresponsible rescue moving sick/infectious horses around the country

also very irresponsible to put sick horses where there is no-one to have hands on them on a daily basis, if they are wearing rugs and you don't touch them daily how do you know if they are hot/cold/rubbing/have rain scald or are gaining/dropping weight fast?

a rescue with no quarantine facilities?

They have quarantine facilities but they are currently full. I am there daily to handle them if necessary, but I don't deem it necessary to handle them yet. If their rugs look like they are slipping/rubbing etc I am quite capable of dealing with it, i just dont see the point in contaminating myself. Surprisingly enough horses often cope quite well without someone feeling them over every day.

Moving sick horses isn't ideal but in their circumstances they had no options. As I said, it was an emergency.

 

[MiniMilton]

Read the post , the vet gave those with pneumonia antibiotics.

Absolutely. Antibiotics were given for the pneumonia

 

[fburton]

Many years ago I discovered that a pony at the vet school had strangles only when I put my hand under his jaw and my fingertips ended up in a pus-filled cavity. You couldn't tell he had strangles from his behaviour, which wasn't obviously depressed. Fortunately, he was pastured by himself at the time and after I had told the grooms and stockmen the outbreak was contained through careful management. After I had been at the vet school I had to go and do my own horse. Knowing how contagious strangles is, I meticulously disinfected myself and my boots and changed all my clothes first. There was no transmission to my horse or any of the others with him.

 

[twiggy2]

All rescue centres are full to overflow, this is overflow.

It is amazing how these things happen: the rescue centre have decided to support these animals and to use a local field for them, the other option might have been to shoot them, OP obviously does not want that, it is her choice.

Still very irresponsible to my mind and there are lots of groups and individual people setting themselves up as rescues who have no idea what they are doing, OP does not seem to begetting much information from the rescue if the questions they are asking on here are anything to go by. The rescue should have made sure OP was aware of all that was involved and the risks that were being taken and that does not seem to be the case.

If rescues are full to over flow then yes I think they should shot them-they are not there to ensure these sick horses are being cared for properly but handing the care to someone who does not have all the information about what they are dealing with.

OP what I have written above is not slur on you I think you have done your best to help but that the rescue should have given you all the info from the start-I wish you well with the ponies and hope it goes well

 

[twiggy2]

They have quarantine facilities but they are currently full. I am there daily to handle them if necessary, but I don't deem it necessary to handle them yet. If their rugs look like they are slipping/rubbing etc I am quite capable of dealing with it, i just dont see the point in contaminating myself. Surprisingly enough horses often cope quite well without someone feeling them over every day.

Moving sick horses isn't ideal but in their circumstances they had no options. As I said, it was an emergency.

Sick horses needs hands on them every day-how will you know the rugs are rubbing if you do not look under the rug? weight loss sweating a chill etc cannot be detected by just looking at a horse in a rug-they would be better with the rugs off and plenty of shelter and a big straw bed in a sheltered spot at least you can see how they are doing but a rug hides so much

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Sick horses needs hands on them every day-how will you know the rugs are rubbing if you do not look under the rug? weight loss sweating a chill etc cannot be detected by just looking at a horse in a rug-they would be better with the rugs off and plenty of shelter and a big straw bed in a sheltered spot at least you can see how they are doing but a rug hides so much

OP is doing her best, you are giving off a lot of negativity, it is not helping.
I have just rescued an abused horse, and I found a lot of local "horse lovers" with a negative attitude, to the same extreme ......... shooting.......... what is that about.........?

 

[MiniMilton]

Still very irresponsible to my mind and there are lots of groups and individual people setting themselves up as rescues who have no idea what they are doing, OP does not seem to begetting much information from the rescue if the questions they are asking on here are anything to go by. The rescue should have made sure OP was aware of all that was involved and the risks that were being taken and that does not seem to be the case.

If rescues are full to over flow then yes I think they should shot them-they are not there to ensure these sick horses are being cared for properly but handing the care to someone who does not have all the information about what they are dealing with.

OP what I have written above is not slur on you I think you have done your best to help but that the rescue should have given you all the info from the start-I wish you well with the ponies and hope it goes well

The rescue centre are providing full financial backing which is commendable, and they have discussed risks with me. They have also stated that they are at the end of the phone at any time if I have any queries or worries. I came here seeking the information independently to ensure that they knew what they were talking about. I didnt want to just take their word for it. The horses are here with me less than 24 hours so there has been a lot to take in information wise. The decision to take them in was only a short time before that.

I haven't actually done anything wrong yet and have ensured the strictest hygiene standards from the very start so hopefully there have been no unnecessary risks so far. They told me that the horses would need complete isolation for 1 month as they believe the horses are in the recovery stage (but this is to be confirmed), which is the information given on most info sheets. I was saying to myself 2 months to be safe, and then one of the links posted above mentions 6-8 weeks so I am glad I double checked. Its not a case that they dumped the horses on me and ran off while I happily contaminated everything around me.

I dont mean to sound defensive, but I don't like this rescue centre getting slated. I've come across a few rescue centers. Some try to rescue everything and don't have the funds to follow through to the end. These however rescue a smaller number and ensure that the horses get everything they need in terms of veterinary care, top quality feed, dentist etc. Its not a half hearted operation, this was just a unique instance where they couldn't keep the horses at their own yard.

And for the record everyone, normally i'm tough enough to refuse to take in rescues, as I have been offered many in the past. But for some reason, possibly hormones combined with Christmas spirit, I had a moment of weakness yesterday

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I am only knowledgeable, and only to a limited extent due to my background, education and training, but uniquely when I was on a large yard with strangles three years ago.
I had plenty of time to observe and to gen up on the disease. I was the only person apart from the vet who had any idea about "hands on" control of an infectious disease, this in spite of all my years with horses, AND my unique education background, there was a lot to learn about a complex and difficult disease.
It is very confusing.

 

[Mike007]

Mike you are so right: I always tie a sweaty sock round my neck and take to my bed when I have a life threatening flu, so much easier than those pesky jabs provided by the NHS for those at risk [even more research just to determine that!]
And as for smallpox, good grief, it seems they want to eradicate it altogether, what is the world coming to!

They liken strangles to Bubonic plague ,a ridiculous and counterproductive thing to do. It causes people to panic ,and panicing people do not think clearly or objectively. A yard full of panicing owners (and of course ,the vets fighting amongst themselves)makes any form of coordinated and effective treatment programme almost impossible. It is no wonder that some yards take months to get clear.Strangles is endemic in some areas and incidentaly if we managed to eliminate it for any significant time ,all that would happen is that the disease would eventualy return and sweep through an entirely unproteted population killing a lot of horses.The reason that strangles has such a bad name is historic ,because there was far less traveling about and far less contiuous exposure to different strains ,so when there was an outbreak ,it could be devastating.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Sick horses needs hands on them every day-how will you know the rugs are rubbing if you do not look under the rug? weight loss sweating a chill etc cannot be detected by just looking at a horse in a rug-they would be better with the rugs off and plenty of shelter and a big straw bed in a sheltered spot at least you can see how they are doing but a rug hides so much

OK twiggy, ponies are near you, why not pop up and check them out?
if not happy, will you arrange for them to be shot, or will you do it?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

sorry, Mike you are not making a lot of sense, but maybe you have something to contribute to scientific research..... strangles is endemic.... here we go...................

 

[Mike007]

Try the newforest for strangles then .

 

[twiggy2]

OK twiggy, ponies are near you, why not pop up and check them out?
if not happy, will you arrange for them to be shot, or will you do it?

you asked for advice I gave my opinion-as stated I was not slating you, but after 25yrs of working with horses I have seen so many horses have rugs removed to expose a real shock to all those around in spite of people thinking they were ok

 

[Orangehorse]

As for strangles - if there is an outbreak and your horse isn't badly affected then count yourself lucky, because it can make them very, very sick indeed. If a hunter caught it at the beginning of the season, then it could well be ill enough not to hunt again that season. Some horses might have acquired some immunity, but many will not.

 

[ELFSBELLS]

This time last year, one of my boys was diagnosed with strangles ( I have 2 horses kept on a diy yard of 10) I alone cared for my 2 boys and the yard wad on lockdown, my boy was quite poorly for a week, I opted for a gutteral pouch wash, and then waited for a final swab from that for the all clear, I kept my affected boy stabled and was as careful about hygiene between the 2 that I could be, no other horse was affected, but keeping away from other horses and strict quarantine is very important x

 

[MiniMilton]

you asked for advice I gave my opinion-as stated I was not slating you, but after 25yrs of working with horses I have seen so many horses have rugs removed to expose a real shock to all those around in spite of people thinking they were ok

Well luckily that has never happened to me. I never use over thick rugs, so I have a pretty good idea of whats going on underneath, the shape of the hindquarters is obvious along with whether or not the hip bones are fleshy or boney, and as the condition of the neck is obvious i'm not sure how people miss a horse losing weight under a rug. Checking a horse daily for weight loss/gain seems extreme. I'm not talking about never taking their rugs off, just a couple of weeks of handling them as little as possible to minimise cross contamination.

If someone puts a rug on a skinny horse and tells you the horse is in good condition do you believe them? No you will probably know it is skinny.

 

[cptrayes]

They liken strangles to Bubonic plague ,a ridiculous and counterproductive thing to do. It causes people to panic ,and panicing people do not think clearly or objectively. A yard full of panicing owners (and of course ,the vets fighting amongst themselves)makes any form of coordinated and effective treatment programme almost impossible. It is no wonder that some yards take months to get clear.Strangles is endemic in some areas and incidentaly if we managed to eliminate it for any significant time ,all that would happen is that the disease would eventualy return and sweep through an entirely unproteted population killing a lot of horses.The reason that strangles has such a bad name is historic ,because there was far less traveling about and far less contiuous exposure to different strains ,so when there was an outbreak ,it could be devastating.

Mike I have to say that I have always believed what others on this thread are saying about strangles, and it was a complete puzzle to me when a very local livery and competition yard made no attempt whatsoever to isolate sick horses, that not one of them suffered more than a bit of a cold, and most never caught it at all.

Is it one of those diseases that only really cause issues with horses with compromised immune systems, do you think? Like ringworm that people also make such a fuss about, but I deliberately infect my horses with to give them some immunity?


PS. OP you've done a very kind thing, I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

 

[Mike007]

30 years ago ,a lot of cases of staph equii infection would have simply been put down to being a bit"off colour" Only the full blown cases would have been easy to spot. This ,in my opinion ,has led to the general view of strangles .The only cases spotted being the worst cases and hence its reputation. Now with Blood tests scopeing and swabs being so easy ,far more cases are spotted,and the majority show very mild symptoms.
When my horse had his "24 hour"bug ,the vet did not even consider strangles,it was only when his neighbour was scoped the following day by another vet at the horsepital ,and they found the abscesses in his gutteral pouches did I realise what he really had . Being fit and well ,he simply shrugged it off. The fuss that ensued however was as a result of bringing the other horse home from horsepital . A veterinary cat fight ensued with one vet saying that the horse should have been left in the horsepital(which would have been at enormous cost to the owner ).even though it had been in the yard with strangles for long enough to potentialy infect every horse anyway. Carefull monitoring of all thye horses ensued and only two needed antibiotics as a result of existing complications ,and NONE showed the classic signs of strangles.
There is far too much hype and hysteria about strangles and it prevents us getting objective information about the disease.

 

[Mike007]

Sorry,previous post should have read strep equii and not staph

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Mike I have to say that I have always believed what others on this thread are saying about strangles, and it was a complete puzzle to me when a very local livery and competition yard made no attempt whatsoever to isolate sick horses, that not one of them suffered more than a bit of a cold, and most never caught it at all.

Is it one of those diseases that only really cause issues with horses with compromised immune systems, do you think? Like ringworm that people also make such a fuss about, but I deliberately infect my horses with to give them some immunity?


PS. OP you've done a very kind thing, I hope it all goes smoothly for you.

The main reason my horse [aged 6], who was in the best of health at the time, got the disease badly was that never in his whole life had he been exposed to the disease. He had no immunity. He has never been sick before or since.

The main reason disease spreads is because of people who knowingly take no precautions.

It is not possible to identify affected [and infectious]horses by looking at them, the only way to monitor them is to take the temperature twice per day, the blood test will identify horses exposed to the disease, and who will have some degree of immunity for some unknown length of time.
The swabbing of the throat test gives false negatives.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Mike, you don't support research but you want an objective view, that is rather contradictory.
We already have all the information we horse owners really need about the disease, its epidemiology, and its effects.
A lot of the work is ongoing and is carried out by the Animal Health Trust who monitor the disease in the UK, and who carry out research. It is the AHT who have provided the guidelines put in to place by vets on the ground. It is they who are notified of every confirmed outbreak and who test all the blood samples free of charge.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Sorry,previous post should have read strep equii and not staph

It is NOT easy to take blood test/swab throats, it is an expensive and time consuming exercise.
I was once charged with looking after a horse with strangles [1960's] which was sent to us with abscesses. It was kept in isolation, the feed and bedding were tossed in to the stable, as was water.
I wore a coat left outside the stable, and dipped my boots in Jeyes fluid. None of the other horses got the disease because they were not in contact. I fed the horse in the morning before going to school and last thing at night. I was not allowed near the other horses.

 

[cptrayes]

Mike, you don't support research but you want an objective view, that is rather contradictory.
We already have all the information we horse owners really need about the disease, its epidemiology, and its effects.
A lot of the work is ongoing and is carried out by the Animal Health Trust who monitor the disease in the UK, and who carry out research. It is the AHT who have provided the guidelines put in to place by vets on the ground. It is they who are notified of every confirmed outbreak and who test all the blood samples free of charge.

I'm not sure now that we do have all the information that we need.

Has anyone tested the general horse population to see how many horses are carrying strangles antibodies but suffered no more than a mild cold or a few off days.

As well as that local yard, I have remembered a horse which i bought from Doncaster Sales. He had a small draining abscess under his jowls which never healed, which I realised must have been a strangles abscess. Surely that must have contained strep equi? Yet none of the horses he has been field mates with have ever shown any sign of the disease.

I find Mike's argument rather compelling, that we only fear the disease so badly because in the old days the only way we knew a horse had it was because it abscessed.

Are there any statistics for what proportion of infected horses which abscess are?

 

[Hippona]

I was once on a yard that had a strangles outbreak....brought in by a horse brought from the sales and not put in isolation.
All the yard came down with it as they all were turned out together, and by the time the first one was confirmed they'd all been in contact.
Two of mine had the abscesses and were quite poorly but made a full recovery and all were swabbed clear.
The third one..who had been in full contact with the other two, and had open stables with half walls so they could touch noses....only got a mild temp and a tiny amount of snot for one day
TBH I may not have even noticed if I hadn't have been on full alert. He was the oldest horse, been around the block a few times before I got him so he probably had some immunity.
It was a pain at the time...inconvenient to be confined to the yard and no riding all summer but it wasn't a total drama
In fact...the chubby shettie dropped a load of weight and looked better after, although I wouldn't recommend it as a weight loss programme.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I'm not sure now that we do have all the information that we need.

Has anyone tested the general horse population to see how many horses are carrying strangles antibodies but suffered no more than a mild cold or a few off days.

I find Mike's argument rather compelling, that we only fear the disease so badly because in the old days the only way we knew a horse had it was because it abscessed.
Are there any statistics for what proportion of infected horses which abscess are?

Sorry, to deal with the last sentence first: that does not make sense in any way to me, the reason people fear the disease is that in years gone by is because it was only identified by the abscesses? That is not why people fear the disease.

There has always been a method of testing, [at least since well before I did microbiology in 1964] by taking a swab and growing the Strep Equii on selective media in a petri dish then examining it under the microscope. We are able to identify organisms by their characteristics, this was the method first developed in about 1890! Technology has moved on, blood testing and DNA testing has taken over, though some of the old methods are still used.
It has always been known that it is highly infectious [as I pointed out in my last thread re looking after a horse in the 1960's, [it was actually late 1950's and I edited it cos people probably think most schoolchildren around at that time are now dead or senile].
In years gone by we did not have riding schools with fifty horses, most horse owners were able to turn out sick horses on their own farms until they recovered, and they would have several horses, in the case of hunters, any sick animal was most likely to be turned out for the season.

Your first sentence does not seem to grasp the problem, in scientific experimentation, one needs a control group and an experimental group, it would not be possible to test the general UK population AND monitor them [twice daily temperatures] over a period of years, presumably blood testing for antibodies and so on as well as clinical reports.
As it happens the yard I was at DID have a control group!!!! Though it would hardly stand scientific scrutiny.
The R.S. ponies were maintained as a separate herd to the DIY horses, and in general did not mix.
When the strangles outbreak was eventually confirmed [a month after a SICK horse arrived at the yard from a DEALER'S yard AND from Ireland].
The horses in the RS were assumed to be at low risk and were sent in to isolation, but were monitored [rectal temp twice daily] AND they were all blood tested........ which showed that many of them had strangles antibodies even though none of them had ever had abscesses, or symptoms to cause concern, those with antibodies would also be expected to have immunity to some degree.
The horses in the livery yard were a group with more varied backgrounds, with constant turnover. Once the horses which were shedding were mixed with the others, the inevitable happened. There were four horses in a row with the disease, all pretty much with the disease contracted within three weeks.
Economic cost must have been £50K-£65 at least: lost revenues, vet bills and so on. Not to mention the suffering and loss of use.