Strangles - tell me all

MrsD123 said:
1. the reason people fear the disease is that in years gone by is because it was only identified by the abscesses? That is not why people fear the disease

2.There has always been a method of testing,

3.Your first sentence does not seem to grasp the problem, in scientific experimentation, one needs a control group and an experimental group, it would not be possible to test the general UK population AND monitor them [twice daily temperatures] over a period of years, presumably blood testing for antibodies and so on as well as clinical reports.
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When the strangles outbreak was eventually confirmed [a month after a SICK horse arrived at the yard from a DEALER'S yard AND from Ireland].

5.The horses in the RS were assumed to be at low risk and were sent in to isolation, but were monitored [rectal temp twice daily] AND they were all blood tested........ which showed that many of them had strangles antibodies even though none of them had ever had abscesses, or symptoms to cause concern, those with antibodies would also be expected to have immunity to some degree.

The horses in the livery yard were a group with more varied backgrounds, with constant turnover. Once the horses which were shedding were mixed with the others, the inevitable happened. There were four horses in a row with the disease, all pretty much with the disease contracted within three weeks.
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1. You have entirely missed the point. If one only ever sees the most severe cases ,it is natural to assume that all cases must be severe.

2.Yes a very slow method .

3.I dont think anyone was talking about an experiment ,so those points are irrelevant. A survey however of blood antibody levels would be rather interesting.

4. A yard where a dealing horse from Ireland is put into the general population un quaranteened and untested.Well that kind of puts things into perspective.

5. Without knowing the horses immunity status prior to exposure ,all this is pretty irrelevant.
 
Mike007 said:
1. You have entirely missed the point. If one only ever sees the most severe cases ,it is natural to assume that all cases must be severe.
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Agree.
I assumed all strangles cases were horrific.
One of mine had really mild symptoms....he was swabbed along with the whole yard, came up positive and then was swabbed clear after the outbreak.
His symptoms were so mild that I wouldn't have thought it was strangles, had the swab not confirmed. A few of the others were similar....Not all had the dripping glands and snot
 
I now think Mike is probably right, that strangles is a disease which causes no more problem than a mild cold to the vast majority of healthy horses with decent immune systems which are exposed to it. Which begs a question as to whether, like ringworm, there may be positive advantages to deliberately exposing strong horses so they have some immunity if they are ever exposed to it when they are weaker.

Thoughts on that Mike? One step too far, or not?
 
We had a strangles outbreak on a yard of 30 odd horses- 20 or so were ill to some degree, about half of those abscessed.
Three died and one has been left with permanent damage to the nerve in the back of his throat which has left him with poor breathing.
My own previously healthy robust welsh cob was not fully recovered for about 8 months.
I don't know if there is such thing as an aggressive strain but it was truly dreadful and I would not wish it on anyone.
 
cptrayes said:
I now think Mike is probably right, that strangles is a disease which causes no more problem than a mild cold to the vast majority of healthy horses with decent immune systems which are exposed to it. Which begs a question as to whether, like ringworm, there may be positive advantages to deliberately exposing strong horses so they have some immunity if they are ever exposed to it when they are weaker.

Thoughts on that Mike? One step too far, or not?
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Seriously? Deliberately expose stronger animals to it, allow the disease to become more rampant and sod anybody with foals, yearlings or weaker animals?!
 
A step too far for me ,however once an outbreak has occured within a yard I do believe that it is counterproductive to segregate .It merely prolongs things.Foxy 1,that sounds like a really nasty experience.It is hard to say why it was such a hard hitting outbreak. There is the obvious question whether this was a more virulent strain or not. I would be interested to know more about the age ,breed and history of the horses. I guess that we all know about young Irish horses coming over here and having the snots/strangles. The real question is WHY? .In my opinion ,the real truth is that the poor animals have come from an isolated background and have no immunity ,they get run down by the sudden change and Bamm ,they get strangles. Rather like remote Amazonian tribes suddenly being exposed to relatively mild western diseases which wipe them out.It is all very interesting ,and for the record I am not anti research.But researchers I treat with a healthy degree of scepticism .
 
Did you know that 50% of people in the USA have doubts about the Theory of Evolution?

Obviously there are some Creationists who truly believe in Genesis and the Bible Theory, but their influence and their fervour is so great that they have sown the seeds of doubt far and wide.
 
There could well be circumstances where some horses have acquired some immunity and so if they are exposed to a full-blown strangles outbreak they have a less severe illness.

Maybe something like ringworm, where the scruffy little rescue pony has the tinest little lesion under his jaw, yet the pampered, stud raised 4 year old in a private home gets covered from the tip of his ear, all down his neck, shoulder, body and quarters and is quite poorly - my horse if you haven't guessed.

I think in this case that a horse kept at home and not mixing regularly with all sorts is probably more at risk of being seriously ill than a livery horse.

Foxy - that was a horrible experience for you and how sad for the horse's owners that died. As I said before, if your horse isn't serious ill, then you are very lucky, and be thankful.
 
Rather at a tangent here but I get your drift,and of course you have got this mixed up too. Creationism has been about for far longer than the theory of evolution .Several thousand years against about 100.So actualy it is not the creationists sowing doubt but the creationists being unwilling to give up their long held beliefs (or even question them!)in the face of rational thought and observation. Yes I do think your analogy is entirely correct.
 
foxy1 said:
We had a strangles outbreak on a yard of 30 odd horses- 20 or so were ill to some degree, about half of those abscessed.
Three died and one has been left with permanent damage to the nerve in the back of his throat which has left him with poor breathing.
My own previously healthy robust welsh cob was not fully recovered for about 8 months.
I don't know if there is such thing as an aggressive strain but it was truly dreadful and I would not wish it on anyone.
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Nasty :(
 
Mike007 said:
Rather at a tangent here but I get your drift,and of course you have got this mixed up too. Creationism has been about for far longer than the theory of evolution .Several thousand years against about 100.So actualy it is not the creationists sowing doubt but the creationists being unwilling to give up their long held beliefs (or even question them!)in the face of rational thought and observation. Yes I do think your analogy is entirely correct.
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The idea that the Earth was flat was typical of ancient European cosmologies until about the 4th century BC, when the Ancient Greek philosophers proposed the idea that the Earth was a sphere, or at least rounded in shape. Aristotle was one of the first Greek thinkers to propose a spherical Earth in 330 BC. By the early Middle Ages, it was widespread knowledge throughout Europe that the Earth was a sphere. The International Flat Earth Society still has a number of members. but pre 4th BC most civilizations [and there were many] probably held such beliefs, and of course there were a lot of Sun worshipers, their descendents are to be found on the beaches of St Tropez

My point Mike, is that no matter how much scientific evidence is presented, and case histories, you still persist in your theories, you, and others like you have led to the general confusion about the epidemiology and the treatment of the disease.
 
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The yard is a busy livery yard with a mixture of horses of different ages and with different jobs, happy hackers to show jumpers, to hunters.
Two of the three that died were older (mid teens) pony club ponies that had been to rallies/shows/hunted all their lives. The other one was a 8/9 year old riding club horse. We don't know which horse bought the virus in.

My horse had a hole under his jaw that you could fit your fist in when the abscesses burst, lost so much weight because he found it too painful to eat and drink. The pressure was so much on the airway of another horse that he collapsed.

I know for some horses it isn't serious but for others it is devastating.

I did ask a vet if there were more virulent strains but he said no..... ( which doesn't mean he is right!)
 
MrsD123 said:
My point Mike, is that no matter how much scientific evidence is presented, and case histories, you still persist in your theories, you, and others like you have led to the general confusion about the epidemiology and the treatment of the disease.
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Excuse me for cutting out all the trivia. I will persist with my theorys because they are not merely based on one incidence of strangles. I have encountered this disease a significant number of times over the years. I have to believe the evidence before my own eyes. I have seen various approaches to treatment and prevention. I have seen the results.
 
foxy1 said:
The yard is a busy livery yard with a mixture of horses of different ages and with different jobs, happy hackers to show jumpers, to hunters.
Two of the three that died were older (mid teens) pony club ponies that had been to rallies/shows/hunted all their lives. The other one was a 8/9 year old riding club horse. We don't know which horse bought the virus in.

My horse had a hole under his jaw that you could fit your fist in when the abscesses burst, lost so much weight because he found it too painful to eat and drink. The pressure was so much on the airway of another horse that he collapsed.

I know for some horses it isn't serious but for others it is devastating.

I did ask a vet if there were more virulent strains but he said no..... ( which doesn't mean he is right!)
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My one with the persistent abscess between the jowls abscess also had laryngeal hemiplaegia, may or may not have been connected......
 
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The more one looks at the reality of the situation the more incongruitys become apparent.Consider for example the case I refered to in which my own horse was involved. The vet who failed to spot that it was strangles.How many yards did she subsequently visit on her rounds? and the horse with the fully developed abscesses .How many yards did his farrier visit. The feed lorry ,the muck lorry, horseboxes ,etc etc. If this disease was as infectious as some people would have us believe ,it should have exploded around the district like a bomb.But of course it didnt.
 
Yes they are .I believe that one which was brought out a few years ago ,was subsequently withdrawn .The problem with vaccination is that there is a statistical minimum number of horses that would have to be vaccinated to prevent an outbreak.This may seem unimportant ,because you care enough to get your horses vaccinated so thats OK. Your horse will be fine.Unfortunately you wont be welcome anywhere ,if another horse in your yard gets strangles. There is also the danger with vaccination ,that it can ultimately increase the number of horses in a population which have a very low immunity level. Any subsequent falloff in vaccination levels and suddenly you get a very serious epidemic.
 
When any of you had strangles were the whole yard swabbed and blood tested even if they had not been in contact with the infected horse/horses and shown no symptoms six weeks or so after the horse was originally ill?
 
Mike007 said:
I guess that we all know about young Irish horses coming over here and having the snots/strangles. The real question is WHY? .In my opinion ,the real truth is that the poor animals have come from an isolated background and have no immunity ,they get run down by the sudden change and Bamm ,they get strangles. Rather like remote Amazonian tribes suddenly being exposed to relatively mild western diseases which wipe them out .
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More likely because they come via dealers that don't give a ****.
Most irish horses will have hunted as a 3yo and 4yo so hardly an isolated background. They then end up at dealers that don't care about putting infected horses next to healthy ones.
 
To a large extent the answer is going to depend on what you mean by not in contact. The blood test can cause more confusion than it resloves. It is merely a "snapshot"in time and unless you have a series of regular bloodtests the answer is merely an educated guess. Scoping and swabbing gives more conclusive information but is expensive. I do know of a case where a yard which had recovered from strangles at great effort and expense,introduced a requirement for a blood test on new liveries . The first new customer (who had been waiting for the yard to become clear ) failed the blood test . A subsequent blood test then showed clear. Incidentaly ,the date the first horse becomes ill is irrelevant. Temperatures need to be taken at set times twice a day every day on every horse ,and charts kept. Horses vary in their normal body temperature which is why this is important .It establishes what is normal and identifies when the disease hits an individual animal. Vets will vary in their opinions as to what should be done.I think ultimately it is up to the YO to decide based on the best available advice ,and everyone then does what is required ,Scope &swab ,blood test or even nothing.
 
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