Strangles, the Vaccine, and your opinion

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RuthieG

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I'll be honest, the vaccine is newly launched, probably only useful for competition horses, and I'll bet not many want to risk it, to my mind, the manufactures should be monitoring the use and relevance of their vaccine, and are the only ones in a position to produce a statistically significant report, sorry, not wanting to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but too many hours are spent on surveys which prove very little.
Re it being a notifiable disease, in the UK this will only happen to economically significant diseases like Foot and Mouth.
The questions are rather difficult to answer, eg "would you have your horse tested as a carrier. ......... what test are we talking about?
Any horse which has recently had the disease should have a Gutteral Pouch test for live bacterial infection, an optical examination, and a residual long term antibiotic. This would be optional in some cases but in other the YO would insist.
My horse had the disease a year ago, I would not put him through that again, for no reason.
You can't compare individual owners views with different vets views, that is comparing chalk and cheese surely.
 
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Thank you for your feedback!
I understand there are a lot of surveys out there! Your point of view on Strangles is of interest to me, and provides me with many points I can make in my dissertation! Its not massive but its big for me :)
Thank you for looking!
 
I'm with Miss L toe on this. Strangles causes mass panic as soon as anyone hears it is in their area. If people were more educated about how it typically affects horses then there wouldn't be half the panic there is. On top of this there is also alot of mass hysteria on the internet regarding strangles and alot of people will not admit to having it amongst their horses in the first place which does enable it to spread alot more easily. I was recently told by a vet that more often than not if it appears at a yard which has commercial connections, ie a riding school, show centre or racing yard then they are reluctant to even involve the vets due to the damage it does to their business.
 
I will start by saying when you have seen a horse with severe strangles you won't call hysteria the panic that peoplel can feel when it's in their area . When I was a child my pony caught it despite quick veterinary intervention the pony nearly died needed a years rest and never really felt the same again.
So when I heard the vaccine was avaiable around five years ago I was one of the first that my vet vaccinated out of five horses all were ill one very mildly three were poorly and one was ill enough to need to call the vet out in the middle of the night .
So when I heard that the vaccine had been relaunched I did not vaccinate the horses I have now( non are the same as the horses I had first time round).
However when I recently heard that there was strangles in my area I decided to vaccinate again first vacc one horse had a slightly reddened lip and was quiet for a day otherwise the other three where ok.
Second vacc two weeks later the horse that had the reddened lip had a red lip again .the vaccs where done around 3.30 at six I noticed that one was quiet at 8.30 he was very quiet and had done no droppings since 5pm and his lip was swollen .
When I went back at ten thirty he was shaking from head to foot literally quivering his lip was huge and had done no droppings I called the vet out he had a very high temperature and this had slowed his bowel right down he had an injection to bring his temperature down and vet left some powders to keep his temperature down and said to give him a week off that was up today when I went to do him up tonight an abscess has burst out the outer side of his muzzle and is dripping pus.
my vet has reported an adverse reaction to the drug company I have sent her a photo of the burst abscess to night
So I am not sure what to tell you I think about the strangles vacc on one hand my pony had a terrible illness that nearly killed her and had a permanent effect on her on the other going through this every three to six months does not seem a great option either.
I don't know when this horse will be back at work vet and I where both short of time when we spoke tonight I will discus this more fully tomorrow.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I will start by saying when you have seen a horse with severe strangles you won't call hysteria the panic that peoplel can feel when it's in their area . When I was a child my pony caught it despite quick veterinary intervention the pony nearly died needed a years rest and never really felt the same again.
So when I heard the vaccine was avaiable around five years ago I was one of the first that my vet vaccinated out of five horses all were ill one very mildly three were poorly and one was ill enough to need to call the vet out in the middle of the night .
So when I heard that the vaccine had been relaunched I did not vaccinate the horses I have now( non are the same as the horses I had first time round).
However when I recently heard that there was strangles in my area I decided to vaccinate again first vacc one horse had a slightly reddened lip and was quiet for a day otherwise the other three where ok.
Second vacc two weeks later the horse that had the reddened lip had a red lip again .the vaccs where done around 3.30 at six I noticed that one was quiet at 8.30 he was very quiet and had done no droppings since 5pm and his lip was swollen .
When I went back at ten thirty he was shaking from head to foot literally quivering his lip was huge and had done no droppings I called the vet out he had a very high temperature and this had slowed his bowel right down he had an injection to bring his temperature down and vet left some powders to keep his temperature down and said to give him a week off that was up today when I went to do him up tonight an abscess has burst out the outer side of his muzzle and is dripping pus.
my vet has reported an adverse reaction to the drug company I have sent her a photo of the burst abscess to night
So I am not sure what to tell you I think about the strangles vacc on one hand my pony had a terrible illness that nearly killed her and had a permanent effect on her on the other going through this every three to six months does not seem a great option either.
I don't know when this horse will be back at work vet and I where both short of time when we spoke tonight I will discus this more fully tomorrow.
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This is madness, if the vaccine has been released without proper warnings or testing, the company should be ashamed, they only do this for profit, and one has to say, what profit, few people will be using the treatment.
My horse has never fully recovered, mentally the whole experience left us both shattered.
 
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Miss L Toe said:
This is madness, if the vaccine has been released without proper warnings or testing, the company should be ashamed, they only do this for profit, and one has to say, what profit, few people will be using the treatment.
My horse has never fully recovered, mentally the whole experience left us both shattered.
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I have to say tonight I am stunned by this turn of events I had no idea this might happen the vet is also somewhat taken aback to put it mildly.
 
Miss L Toe said:
I'll be honest, the vaccine is newly launched, probably only useful for competition horses, and I'll bet not many want to risk it, to my mind, the manufactures should be monitoring the use and relevance of their vaccine, and are the only ones in a position to produce a statistically significant report, sorry, not wanting to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but too many hours are spent on surveys which prove very little.
Re it being a notifiable disease, in the UK this will only happen to economically significant diseases like Foot and Mouth.
The questions are rather difficult to answer, eg "would you have your horse tested as a carrier. ......... what test are we talking about?
Any horse which has recently had the disease should have a Gutteral Pouch test for live bacterial infection, an optical examination, and a residual long term antibiotic. This would be optional in some cases but in other the YO would insist.
My horse had the disease a year ago, I would not put him through that again, for no reason.
You can't compare individual owners views with different vets views, that is comparing chalk and cheese surely.
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Or an even more difficult question - "If you're horse was a carrier and did not respond to treatment how would you feel if DEFRA ordered statutory slaughter?"
 
Strangles is one of those diseases where most horses recover just fine, but a small % have a very severe reaction - you can't discount that reaction though, because it could happen to you and your horse. Mostly it's an economic pain as you have to then pay £££ to get your horse proved not to be a carrier, your yard has to be quarantined until clear etc. I've seen 20+ horses with the disease, every one of which was fine. Most of my herd have had it, some with very minor symptoms, some full-blown. It's not something I'd panic about - what will be will be. Yes I won't have nose to nose contact if we're at a show, and don't share feed bowls/drinking troughs with unknown horses, but that's just sensible hygiene.

I wouldn't pay ££ every six months to vaccinate.
 
Goldenstar said:
I will start by saying when you have seen a horse with severe strangles you won't call hysteria the panic that people can feel when it's in their area
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Have to say I agree 100% with this. We had 3 die on our yard after an outbreak, one almost 18 months later after a tumour grew on the site of an abdominal abscess, another has been left with permanant damage to the nerve in his throat which means he constantly coughs and can't return to full ridden work, and another now has regular colic episodes having never suffered colic before.
Took my horse a year to get over it.

alsiola- that's a really interesting question. Do you know how often carriers don't respond to treatment?
 
foxy1 said:
alsiola- that's a really interesting question. Do you know how often carriers don't respond to treatment?
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I don't know - not sure if the research has ever been done. There is literature on how to try and deal with difficult cases to treat, so one assumes they must exist. I have had one case that needed two rounds of antibiotics into the guttural pouch to clear, but otherwise they have been dealt with quite simply.

It was really just a hypothetical question posed to those who would have strangles a notifiable disease.
 
I have just been out to do up horses for the night ,the poor horses muzzle is dripping pus it's disgusting have but hot towels on it on the better out than in view of the world , have to say this ones not getting the vaccine again but what to do about the others?
 
We have it frequently round here; most horses are fine. I wonder though if it's more severe in areas where it's rarer, as horses are exposed less often, and are often adults when they get it, so provoking a more severe immune response - like with chickenpox in humans? Is it also less severe in populations where it's endemic because those who would react badly don't survive to breed - like the ponies on the New Forest for example?

Just a thought...
 
horsemad32 said:
We have it frequently round here; most horses are fine. I wonder though if it's more severe in areas where it's rarer, as horses are exposed less often, and are often adults when they get it, so provoking a more severe immune response - like with chickenpox in humans? Is it also less severe in populations where it's endemic because those who would react badly don't survive to breed - like the ponies on the New Forest for example?

Just a thought...
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This is what the vet said last week that a strong responce was not altogether a bad thing but an abscess on the muzzle dripping pus is taking it too far IMO.
 
Miss L Toe said:
Personally I would be more interested in some research which would help to educate horse owners and yard owners, this is the only way to control outbreaks, vaccines won't do it.
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^^^ this

Only on the basis i know of two yards that have been hit with it and still allowed people to hack out, and didnt put a lock down. This is a joke in my oppinion as it puts many other horses at risk!
 
horsemad32 said:
We have it frequently round here; most horses are fine. I wonder though if it's more severe in areas where it's rarer, as horses are exposed less often, and are often adults when they get it, so provoking a more severe immune response - like with chickenpox in humans? Is it also less severe in populations where it's endemic because those who would react badly don't survive to breed - like the ponies on the New Forest for example?

Just a thought...
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I think you are correct, in my case, only two horse were badly affected, and yet when blood tested, 50 percent of the 50 equines] had been exposed recently, my horse had always had a quiet life, living in a small herd, he got a heavy dose, and was affected for a long time, three to four months, then six months to recover to full health. He is not the horse he was.
 
Well we are now in quarantine because I tried to do the right thing and had my horses vaccinated .
Vet came in this morning and swabbed the muzzle I have horses booked on clinics supposed to be going out completing and hunting I am furious .
I have told the vet that I am expecting the drug company to to FULLY compensate me for the cost and inconveince of all this.
I am very angry now I was never told that this was any sort of risk when I had them vaccinated I thought the worse you got was an off colour horse for a few days.
The vet is contacting them this morning and I will see what happens today depending on there attitude I will may get a horsey friend who is a solicitor to write to them because I don't see why I should meet the cost of this.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well we are now in quarantine because I tried to do the right thing and had my horses vaccinated .
Vet came in this morning and swabbed the muzzle I have horses booked on clinics supposed to be going out completing and hunting I am furious .
I have told the vet that I am expecting the drug company to to FULLY compensate me for the cost and inconveince of all this.
I am very angry now I was never told that this was any sort of risk when I had them vaccinated I thought the worse you got was an off colour horse for a few days.
The vet is contacting them this morning and I will see what happens today depending on there attitude I will may get a horsey friend who is a solicitor to write to them because I don't see why I should meet the cost of this.
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I think you are quite correct, the previous vaccine had variable symptoms/reliability, including your problems, so one expected it would all be solved before re-launch, the swab presumably will be tested for live Stretococcus Equi, that would be very dangerous if positive.
You can contact S-P yourself, to make sure the Chairman investigates, rather than some lab technician.
 
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we had strangles 20 feet aross the lane and my horses did not get it!

mind you i went round screeching at the top of my voice because they did'nt tell me, and believe me i can screech and jump around, i even gave the blokes boss, a top vet a good bxllxcking he never said a word so either he agreed with me or was too scared!

this was in trotters, but it just goes to show if you take quick action you can avoid it,

no touching other horses, no staying overnight in strange boxes, extreme hygiene, its only passed by touch normally, treat all others like they have the plague, and if you do get it somehow, tell everyone straight away, people will respect you for it.
 
Goldenstar, these were exactly the same problems as last time the vaccine was launched, it beggars belief they have still not solved these issues.

I hope you cause a real stink and get fully compensated, and not just refunded your expenses.
 
I have spoken to my friend the solicitor and she says that we should give the company the chance to do the right thing if they don't she will write to them.
 
tristar said:
we had strangles 20 feet aross the lane and my horses did not get it!

mind you i went round screeching at the top of my voice because they did'nt tell me, and believe me i can screech and jump around, i even gave the blokes boss, a top vet a good bxllxcking he never said a word so either he agreed with me or was too scared!

this was in trotters, but it just goes to show if you take quick action you can avoid it,

no touching other horses, no staying overnight in strange boxes, extreme hygiene, its only passed by touch normally, treat all others like they have the plague, and if you do get it somehow, tell everyone straight away, people will respect you for it.
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Its not normally only passed on by touch, Strangles is primarily a respiratory based infection and can be passed by droplet infection, so it can be passed by horses coughing and sneezing either onto other horses or onto surfaces other horses have access to.
 
The vet has just rung me to say she has spoken to the drug company and there is no need to quarantine the yard or the horse.
However she has advised me that she would feel happier if I continued to quarantine the horse on the yard while the abscess is draining and that makes sense to me. It's easy to do as he was in a box on his own away from the others as he had been on box rest and was a Pratt when the others went on exercise so we put him in the sin bin away from the others and left him there as he seems more settled in there so thats one bit of good luck.
I am going to take everyone's temperature daily , but despite what I have been told I am not going to the clinic Wednesday and Thursday as I am uncomfortable with going . Does this seem silly ?
 
I'm always a bit baffled by all the noise about the "new" strangles vaccine. It isn't new, its just not been used in this country much. In the US, vaccination is completely standard and has been in use for many years. If it caused many serious reactions I'm quite sure such a litigeous country would have screamed its head off by now. I suspect that what people have had problems with is the injected vaccine. They don't use that in the States any more because there WERE some problems. Now everyone uses the inhaled type and my American contacts say it is fine and effective. I've nursed a horse (14 year old) with a moderate case of stangles and frankly it was horrible. A friend lost her home-bred 2 year old to it in the most distressing circumstances and one of the veterinary nurses who used to be in the local practice had a very bad time with her adult mare when it went to HP. Anyone who just gets a mild dose in their horse should count themselves VERY lucky.
 
marydoll said:
Its not normally only passed on by touch, Strangles is primarily a respiratory based infection and can be passed by droplet infection, so it can be passed by horses coughing and sneezing either onto other horses or onto surfaces other horses have access to.
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Yes, but you see the next horse has then to touch a surface, like my coat, or a haynet, the sneezes, will transfer infective particles, on to another surface, for this reason, all extreme hygiene measures will stop the disease, provided all people stick to the routine.
Contagious means transfer by touch, not necessarily the primary touch of one animal to another.
The Strep is a bacterium and is heavier than a virus which can transfer via the air.
Sneezing or rubbing noses means horses are too close!
 
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fatpiggy said:
I'm always a bit baffled by all the noise about the "new" strangles vaccine. It isn't new, its just not been used in this country much. In the US, vaccination is completely standard and has been in use for many years. If it caused many serious reactions I'm quite sure such a litigeous country would have screamed its head off by now. I suspect that what people have had problems with is the injected vaccine. They don't use that in the States any more because there WERE some problems. Now everyone uses the inhaled type and my American contacts say it is fine and effective. I've nursed a horse (14 year old) with a moderate case of stangles and frankly it was horrible. A friend lost her home-bred 2 year old to it in the most distressing circumstances and one of the veterinary nurses who used to be in the local practice had a very bad time with her adult mare when it went to HP. Anyone who just gets a mild dose in their horse should count themselves VERY lucky.
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Well S-P withdrew the original vaccine in the UK, and re-launched this one in the UK. There is no doubt that vaccination will not stop the disease in its tracks on a national basis.
 
Three of mine had strangles/were last exposed having had it before, only a couple of years ago - can you imagine their reaction to the vaccine? No thanks! I was mistakenly vaccinated twice for Rubella as a child - the second time was a long long way from pleasant. Similarly with the BCG - if you show up as nearly immune on the Heap test, they don't dare give it to you because the reaction can be too severe. The vaccine wouldn't do my immune ones any good (they won't catch it anyway) and would very likely cause some unpleasant reaction symptoms. The one that hasn't had it lives in a herd which has been tested and none of them are carriers, and doesn't contact other horses other than at a distance competing (no nose to nose contact, no sharing of water troughs etc) - so low risk.

In the USA, if it's used successfully and therefore most horses don't come into the contact with the disease ever, I'd imagine that the risk of reaction is low. Here, where most adult horses in endemic areas are already immune, the reverse would be true.
 
Goldenstar said:
The vet has just rung me to say she has spoken to the drug company and there is no need to quarantine the yard or the horse.
However she has advised me that she would feel happier if I continued to quarantine the horse on the yard while the abscess is draining and that makes sense to me. It's easy to do as he was in a box on his own away from the others as he had been on box rest and was a Pratt when the others went on exercise so we put him in the sin bin away from the others and left him there as he seems more settled in there so thats one bit of good luck.
I am going to take everyone's temperature daily , but despite what I have been told I am not going to the clinic Wednesday and Thursday as I am uncomfortable with going . Does this seem silly ?
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It is sensible, as far as you are concerned, the S-P are just reading off the sales blurb, what do they know?
Personally, I would want to talk to S-P senior vet who developed the vaccine, and discuss what is going on, is the horse now infected?
if not infected, what the devil is this abscess infected with?
 
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