Stretching into Contact/Better Self-carriage

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JazzTheQH

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How would you go about this?
Please as many details as possible! (Methods and how and why they work!)
Everyone says to use leg to push the horse into the bit then let the horse take the bit from you and stretch into it. My mare won't take the bit and stretch down. (Which is to be expected as she she was never taught which is why I'm posting this!)
She overall needs to improve her carriage (Lifting through ENTIRE top line, stepping further underneath herself with her hind legs, impulsion, keeping a consistent pace etc.) and from what I understand this is something crucial we both need to understand!
 
Rhythm and balance come first with free forward going motion. So first of all be confident that your horse is going forward. Then trot, quite slowly, but in rhythm, moving in circles and surpentines consistently. If a spook or unbalance occurs regain the rhythm and moving forward, balance comes from the consistent work. This can/will take many sessions and you use your legs to start the pace and keep it going but no nagging. Your contact should be light and consistent and equal on both reins, as balance and strength comes the head is carried and you feel the horse moving into your contact.
It has taken a year for our youngster to achieve this so patience is key…
 
contact is like fight club.....no one talks about it!!!!!

contact is the feeling between hand and mouth and thus you will have to use your hands.

not sawing or fixing but you may need to use the hand to move the bit or to bend the neck or to show the horse how to reach down....... all this mythical just keep the lightest steady contact for ever and ever amen is not actually how it works......signed someone who has trained multiple horses to schooling GP.......

find a trainer locally who has horses of varying types going nicely in a good contact and book lessons and get them to show you is he best way :)
 
It's super complex and also will depend on the overall approach of the training you take. I kind of disagree with using the leg to push the horse into the hand, it generally results in compression. Working on balance BEFORE movement rather than pushing the horse forward (forward is about intent, not actual movement, though some proper swinging forwards may well be part of an approach) is what I communicate with my saddle fit customers. The hind leg doesn't need to step more forward per se, asking for overtrack as a target, isn't helpful....but the horse needs better control of the HQs, ribcage rotation and then must learn to push up in front. Relationship to contact is mostly a result of this all being correct, though it's only one philosophy on training its the one I believe in.

If you're happy to have a try of a free online programme that won't work specifically on contact but will work in the way I explain, the Diana Waters (see https://www.facebook.com/groups/185219844520695), Responsive Equine, has a free month of slow walk work coming up (though not sure it's in the next week or two), and you'll find other good stuff on equitopiacenter.com, Patrick King Horsemanship and Annie Dillon Horsemanship.

I think explaining to people how to do things without knowing more about the current picture can be problematic. One debate I saw recently was about whether we should be telling riders to internally rotate their thighs or relax their knees of the saddle as a priority. The argument went on for some time. Every rider is different, not only in how they naturally sit, and how their own saddle and horse make them sit, but in how they understand instructions. It's why I would suggest going to look at content that has visuals and, ideally, the chance to get feedback or at least see other people trying the work and getting feedback (some programmes only allow each person to get one feedback session for instance).

Work on that carriage, not bringing the back up but addressing HQ stability, ribcage rotation and then the thoracic sling being able to push up, and the rest will come.
 
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Ask around locally, friends/riding club etc for recommendations for instructors near you, then go and watch them teach to get an idea if you like their style, are comfortable with their level of knowledge, then when you find someone you think will be a good fit, have lessons. This really needs experienced eyes on the ground to help you and your horse.
 
Self carriage is hard for most horses because they are basically carrying themselves it takes alot of effort from them and takes time to build the right muscles get the strength and balance required.

Get a good instructor to help you but it sounds like she is not going forward enough it won't happen if they are not truly forward, you get a proper feel for it once you know how the horse should feel.
 
get a good dressage teacher on the ground seeing where the issue is. it's impossible to self-diagnose what the issue is if you aren't used to schooling horses like this. It can be a case of riders contact being unsteady, rider not rewarding at the right time, horses conformation, lack of balance in horse and/or rider, weakness or issue in hind, lack of muscling etc. there are a load of different reasons, and some horses can be trickers or have more evasions that others.
you need a good set of eyes to pinpoint what the horse and rider need to be doing for the stage they are at
 
In a young horse, ridden by an experienced rider, it just kind of happens. The rider rides correctly from the start, horse offers contact and the beginnings of correct self carriage, rider kindly accepts and rides into it, job done. Just got to develop what you have thereafter. Hence the complete lack of literature on how to do it!

BUT if that initial offering in those first few months under saddle is ignored, or something happens to make them think that will hurt if they offer again (saddle, bit, teeth, inconsistent contact and perhaps bruising as a result etc etc) then they will learn NOT to offer. That’s harder to fix.

Will a horse who has learned to go with its head in the air for whatever reason begin to offer again randomly of their own accord? Quite possibly not. Can someone on the internet tell you what to do and how to fix this? Not really - you need someone in person who knows what they are doing. And I say that, having once been the owner with her own young horse and without a clue as to how to do this very thing. I found a well recommended instructor and she taught my horse, then me a step behind. This is absolutely what you need to do.

There is so much more to it than just asking their head down. For example, I was teaching my son today on his young pony. ‘She won’t do it’ he said.
‘It‘s you!’ I replied.
And it was. I stuck him on the lunge and corrected his riding until…his pony went like a dream. Lovely rhythm, beautiful self carriage, picture of perfection. So long as he concentrated and rode 100% correctly!

So… ask around - on local Facebook groups or at your yard. Find someone whose approach you like and who your horse responds well to. Get them to teach your horse and you.
 
Self carriage is not something to expect early on, it's kind of a destination

To stretch forwards into the hand the horse needs confidence in the riders hand, enough power, balance, a combination of everything necessary to make the back come up naturally, all at the same time and a rhythm that can be maintained by passing through regular training with will give it strength

W hen the horse is ready it just happens, varying between allowing stretch in walk and riding the horse up in front for a few strides is good practice varying the outline, for a novice horse


Personally i try never to pull back with the hands, fiddle, it's all very subtle , and playing with lateral work on your own , just have go, if its a Bit a wonky just lsugh, in 12 months you will have learned a lot

riding a school master would show what you are aiming for to feel and learn to sit still without tension
 
The most important thing is to understand that BTV is sometimes where the horse takes you and sometimes the best thing to do about is nothing just keep riding to correct rhythm with the appropriate amount of impulsion and take time for the horse to build strength.
I was certainly guilty of having the impulse to ride the horse too forwards when I was younger in a vain attempt to get away from that nothing in front feeling.
Connection is all about the physical strengthening of horse and it takes time certainly months, years it’s a journey .

Understanding there’s a difference between the weak horse going BTV and riding to fix the horses head and neck in one place is a start.
 
Goldenstar said:
The most important thing is to understand that BTV is sometimes where the horse takes you and sometimes the best thing to do about is nothing just keep riding to correct rhythm with the appropriate amount of impulsion and take time for the horse to build strength.
I was certainly guilty of having the impulse to ride the horse too forwards when I was younger in a vain attempt to get away from that nothing in front feeling.
Connection is all about the physical strengthening of horse and it takes time certainly months, years it’s a journey .

Understanding there’s a difference between the weak horse going BTV and riding to fix the horses head and neck in one place is a start.
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I don’t really agree with this- if the horse goes BTV you're not building any useful muscle so the rider should correct it. Little upwards aids to get the neck up and offering the hands forwards to get it out. BTV is almost always the rider's hands IMO- the contact is too unyielding or the hands are fixed in position.
 
TheMule said:
I don’t really agree with this- if the horse goes BTV you're not building any useful muscle so the rider should correct it. Little upwards aids to get the neck up and offering the hands forwards to get it out. BTV is almost always the rider's hands IMO- the contact is too unyielding or the hands are fixed in position.
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I agree with most of what you are saying, but I did share a horse that had been ridden by bringing the head in, often btv. I was amazed to start with that he clearly had never been allowed to move forward into the contact, or stretch. It did take a while for him to get it, but we got there in the end. The irony is he would have looked so much better with his body compressed/collected and his neck longer. That was still a work in progress when I gave up the share, as was being able to put the bridle on conventionally. I did manage to get him over his fear of spray bottles though.
 
BTV is not always the riders hands .
Horses built very uphill can find it extremely hard to stretch .
I had fast learning experience when I backed my first very uphill type horse .
Everything I knew got turned on its head .
These horses need no hand to be BTV they are built there they need patience and time to learn how to stretch properly .
 
Goldenstar said:
BTV is not always the riders hands .
Horses built very uphill can find it extremely hard to stretch .
I had fast learning experience when I backed my first very uphill type horse .
Everything I knew got turned on its head .
These horses need no hand to be BTV they are built there they need patience and time to learn how to stretch properly .
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I didn’t say it was always, and I recognize that different types will go in different ways. But they should have the hand and it should be correcting the fault. Being in front of the vertical is not stretching, it's neutral.
My own horse finds it incredibly hard to stretch and is only just starting to offer it now at rising 8. That’s because he's a compact little ball with a short neck, thick jowl, over-active hind leg and he really struggles to hold his balance in a stretch position, so I haven’t asked him to- if I put him out into a longer frame before he would have just fallen onto his forehand and there would be no benefit to his body, it would be actively harmful.
 
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Horses don’t need the hand all the time to progress.
Riding the correct rhythm with appropriate impulsion is the key to the development of connection not the horse needing the hands.
Uphill horses need a lot of walking and ideally slot of hacking on long reins .
 
Goldenstar said:
Horses don’t need the hand all the time to progress.
Riding the correct rhythm with appropriate impulsion is the key to the development of connection not the horse needing the hands.
Uphill horses need a lot of walking and ideally slot of hacking on long reins .
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But they do need the hand to make sure they're carrying in the right way with impulsion and rhythm.
I suspect we actually both think the same thing, just coming at it from different angles (as the horse world as a whole tends to do!)
 
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TheMule said:
I don’t really agree with this- if the horse goes BTV you're not building any useful muscle so the rider should correct it. Little upwards aids to get the neck up and offering the hands forwards to get it out. BTV is almost always the rider's hands IMO- the contact is too unyielding or the hands are fixed in position.
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Which is why they always go better with head position when riders ride with one hand!
 
Ok... here, as always, we have the split between: green/young horses and established 'made' horses.

If an established, correctly trained horse goes BTV then either it's the rider or something hurts, hence the evasion.

If a green, wobbly baby or an older green horse goes BTV then that's an understandable evasion that simply tells you they're still a bit weak behind. Young horses wobble in and out of the correct outline all the time, improving with practice and strength. Older horses learning for the first time can be stiffer and just as weak behind. More often they'll go above the vertical, but some will drop behind as young horses do. It's a process, building muscle and understanding takes time.
 
I think horses need a lot less hand than we think, we use it because we've not corrected their bodies. Being "in flow", in alignment, sitting where the horse can most easily carry us (meaning continual adjustments, addressing ribcage rotation etc) helps a horse finds its own balance. I work a little with riders doing this and the change in the horse's balance can be really marked (and I am NOT a skilled instructor by definition) and you can see the base of the neck lifting, the starting point for the horse actually taking the contact forwards. There is literally a featherlight contact, if any, in this work.

The paradigm that we see, and are taught, is to push the horse into the hand, even if it's not "strong" hands in all cases, so often is IS strong. And even when it's not strong it's SO common to ride the horse in compression as that is what wins. If a rider is leaning back (just look at all those GP extended trots across the diagonal) then the hand pretty much HAS to be strong. And yes, to me, btv is down to training and riding, and mistakes being made now, or in the past.
 
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I am the softest rider on the world with my contact (an instructor once barked at me “it’s not confetti, you know, stop chucking it away!”) yet Millie’s favourite thing to do is sit BTV. You can push your hands forwards with loops in the reins and she’ll stay happily BTV. It’s essentially an evasion tactic because it’s far less effort for her to sit there behind the leg and curled up in the neck.

You have to get her long and low and bring her back ‘up and out’. No amount of leg, giving the hand etc will get her to take the contact forwards once she’s got herself stuck there.
It’s been a battle with her since I got her. She’s better than she was but she’ll happily sit there all day if you let her.
 
Lots of information here suddenly but from what I'm gathering I need to find a good instructor who can get horses going nicely with the correct methods. Unfortunately not many trainers like that around here, but I'll keep looking. :) Also I'm seeing lots of people say we need to work on getting the hind end moving better and work on impulsion, and not to focus on headset. I understand that is what we need to do, you hear so often that a "good headset" comes naturally from a good moving body.. I get that, I'm not trying to achieve a good headset, just a correct, relaxed going horse.. but I can't gather any information on HOW to achieve that. You can easily find the "steps" of getting a horse to accomplish something like better Self-carriage (Get your horse to use their hind end more, get better impulsion, improve their balance, etc.) but not what to do to get there, which is why I made this post. I really appreciate you all, and I'll try to find an instructor who I can get information from on how to actually accomplish these things.
 
JazzTheQH said:
Lots of information here suddenly but from what I'm gathering I need to find a good instructor who can get horses going nicely with the correct methods. Unfortunately not many trainers like that around here, but I'll keep looking. :) Also I'm seeing lots of people say we need to work on getting the hind end moving better and work on impulsion, and not to focus on headset. I understand that is what we need to do, you hear so often that a "good headset" comes naturally from a good moving body.. I get that, I'm not trying to achieve a good headset, just a correct, relaxed going horse.. but I can't gather any information on HOW to achieve that. You can easily find the "steps" of getting a horse to accomplish something like better Self-carriage (Get your horse to use their hind end more, get better impulsion, improve their balance, etc.) but not what to do to get there, which is why I made this post. I really appreciate you all, and I'll try to find an instructor who I can get information from on how to actually accomplish these things.
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Can you get out to a clinic? Send the horse for training for a few weeks? Find a knowledgeable friend who could help?

(Trying to think of ways to get what you need!)
 
maya2008 said:
Can you get out to a clinic? Send the horse for training for a few weeks? Find a knowledgeable friend who could help?

(Trying to think of ways to get what you need!)
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Thank you! I know three trainers locally, one of whose barn I board at and am friends with, but is not knowledgeable enough and the other two are popular in my area but use methods that in my personal opinion are too harsh and not how I want to go about things. I will probably post on fb and ask around about more trainers locally! Not many clinics around me, especially this time of year unfortunately.
 
Have a look at 3 Rein Media and the Buck Channel

Contact is still contact, but it's different in western than English. One reason is because of the different frames.

You still want your horse working from behind and over its back.

3 rein features different trainers so you can find what works for you. You can get tasters of thr Buck Channel online and I'd also recommend his 7 Clinics dvds.

For books Western Horseman has a range covering lots of different aspects of western as well as one's specifically on training. Might be worth having a browse through amazon.

Is there one aspect you're interested in eg reining or ranch? If so find someone you admire and who's riding/training you aspire to on YouTube. A lot of training barns seem to be offering online programmes. ProHorse training is a other worth having a look at.

What's your bridle set up? Snaffle, hackamore, curb?
 
JazzTheQH said:
Lots of information here suddenly but from what I'm gathering I need to find a good instructor who can get horses going nicely with the correct methods. Unfortunately not many trainers like that around here, but I'll keep looking. :) Also I'm seeing lots of people say we need to work on getting the hind end moving better and work on impulsion, and not to focus on headset. I understand that is what we need to do, you hear so often that a "good headset" comes naturally from a good moving body.. I get that, I'm not trying to achieve a good headset, just a correct, relaxed going horse.. but I can't gather any information on HOW to achieve that. You can easily find the "steps" of getting a horse to accomplish something like better Self-carriage (Get your horse to use their hind end more, get better impulsion, improve their balance, etc.) but not what to do to get there, which is why I made this post. I really appreciate you all, and I'll try to find an instructor who I can get information from on how to actually accomplish these things.
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I 100% agree with everyone's comments that a good instructor is your best option.

But Western or English, one thing you can work on is transitions - between paces and within paces.
The aim is a horse that is able to shorten and lengthen their stride or from walk to trot or trot to halt etc with out loosing their balance. It should feel smooth and fairly effortless.

Transitions help build strength and balance which you need for good self carriage.

Depending on where you both are in terms of experience, you may need to work on your aids and timing as much as your horse needs to build the strength to do them and understand what you are asking.

Very hard to explain the feeling you are after if you've never ridden it before, but the first time I sat a properly balanced walk to canter transition it was a real "oh wow, right that's what I'm after" so of you can find a schoolmaster lesson it maybe helpful.

Helpfully there are some really good resources books and videos on how to ride good transitions, and I'd recommend some but having a mental blank sorry!
 
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