Strong (and I mean like seriously strong) horse issue...

[warriors26]

I have been a long-time lurker on this forum but reading this post has made me want to reply as I have a very similar horse.

Just one thing, please don't give up on him - if there is nothing physically wrong with him you will find an answer. We bought an 18yr old Grade A showjumper nearly 11 years ago (he was bought as a schoolmaster to give experience jumping round bigger tracks) and when we got him, he was in a ridiculously strong pelham (thin mouthpiece with a port and rollers on the bars) and he was not easy to stop (i.e. he would literally take off after finishing a course and not stop until you could get him on a circle). We tried a variety of bits and nosebands on him, had settled on a Tom Thumb and a Kineton noseband which he seemed to go fairly happily in. His flatwork was basically non-existent to the extent he was dangerous in canter if asked to do more than about half a 20m circle without jumps! Even keeping on a circle didn't work as it would quickly become a wall of death (our instructor wouldn't even stand in the middle of a circle when he was cantering). Draw reins were (and still are to an extent) his safety blanket as previous owners had always used them on him as a quick fix I suppose.

He had a accident jumping with my sister which made us stop jumping him for nearly a year as he went completely off the boil with it and so we decided to work on his flatwork with aims to do some dressage on him. We basically hacked him and schooled only in walk and trot for about 6 months before even thinking of cantering him. When we did reintroduce canter we started with just a few strides of canter then back to walk (canter-trot transitions came a lot later as he just didn't understand them!).

We now have a 29yr old horse who will work happily on the flat in a Myler snaffle and drop noseband and is controllable in walk, trot and canter. He will even canter on a relaxed, loose rein and still come back easily when asked. He was definitely a horse where the more you pulled, the more he pulled and the faster he went; and because he had very little balance on the flat, the more unbalanced he became, the faster he went. He still has his moments when he panics but these instances are far and few between now.

There is no quick fix and it took at least a couple of years to pretty much retrain him to a rideable horse on the flat but it can happen. We thought when we started with him, he was too old, too set in his ways (having been on professional SJ yards since a 4yr old) and it would never happen; we would just have to cope with what he was, but thanks to lots of patience and a vey good instructor, we now have a horse who is relaxed and happy on the flat.

I think it's very much a mental problem and you need to take the time to let him relax, take the pressure off and almost remember how to be a horse again.

 

[Annagain]

The only bit that worked on my strong boy is a waterford 3 ring gag with 2 reins. He was like a pussy cat in it and because I had faith that I could stop him I didn't hang on to him like I did with other bits so he was much happier. He only wore it for fun rides, beach rides and (when he could jump) jumping. I'd have loved it if he didn't have to wear it at all but 95% of the time he was fine, it's just when he got excited he'd lose his head. I couldn't replicate it in a training session so training wasn't possible. He's just hacking now and that isn't exciting (even though we've been jogging sideways lots since Christmas!) so he does that in a mullen mouth hanging cheek snaffle.

I tried all sorts of bits. He made it very clear when he didn't like something, many of them nowhere near as strong as the waterford but the moment I put him in this, he liked it. He's only ever liked mullen mouth or waterford bits, he hates anything single or double jointed.

 

[ester]

Given his head tossiness in a double I wondered about a Swales too as it gets rid of the poll pressure if that is bothering him in the others.

 

[maya2008]

Absolutely no idea if this would be relevant but... has he maybe never learned what to do with all the power from behind, so he directs it forward and down unless there is a jump, rather than up into bouncier paces? I have a youngster who is just coming out of that stage and will still fall forwards and tank if tired, and a pssm horse who struggles to push up and can be almost uncontrollable (only in a saddle mind, bareback fine for some reason) and just run. Neither mean any harm by it, both naturally have a huge amount of power behind.

 

[J&S]

We bought (from the dealer who originally owned Stroller, Marion Mould's famous jumping pony) an ex JA jumping pony who really had lost her confidence jumping those type of tracks, or any type of SJ in an arena for that matter. He told me when I bought her that I would not be able to affiliate her. Of course I wanted to understand why so got in touch with the BSJA and also the Guernsey SJA where she had had her last home. It turned out that she had been sold around the block so many times, each time she was re-affiliated with a different name and ended up in Guernsey because it is different association from the UK branch. The reason being, that she could jump the JC tracks well but her mind would blow with the JA tracks. The last young girl who owned her in Jersey gave up trying to jump her but there as there is very little room for hacking there, she turned to dressage. What I discovered I had, was a beautifully schooled gentle little mare but point her at a jump and it was like a ship in full sail. Could there be a similarity in the mind set of your "incredibly strong" horse??? I rode her in a straight bar rubber snaffle on the open forest, for dressage and showing but nothing would give you any brakes if you were to jump her in an arena apart from the walls!

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I am going to offer no thoughts at all, but this thread has reminded me of a moment out hunting many years ago.

I had a wonderful, wild and very strong Welsh cob. He wore a nathe american gag with a back strap on, I was mostly out of control, but being young and stupid I tolerated it. He simply curled up his massive crested neck, stuck his nose to his chest and did pretty much wanted he wanted to do at speed. Never bucked, never naughty just fast forwards.

We were cantering slowly down hill when hounds found and the pace quickened. Either side of the track we were on was a sprout field. Alongside me was my instructor and good friend, who is now a very highly respected coach and fellow of the BHS. 'Don't pull at him she said, 'give and take' he can't get hold of you then'.

I gave as instructed, he took and we careered off the track and into the sprouts. Still going downhill and towards the bottom of the field. I am tugging right, nothing is happening and sprouts are airborne. I seriously needed to turn right because if we don't there was a choice of a massive hedge or a pond. Do you have any idea how long it takes a Melton hunt coat to dry out after a visit to the bottom of a pond !

I too had one of those - the coloured one in my profile pic. Head on chest and did what he liked!! Luckily I stopped hunting him before I ended up in a pond.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think there's a difference between the OP's horse and horses who get strong running with a group because they're having such a good time, they don't care what their rider thinks. My now-26 year old can be exciting in a group but is in no way a problem, nor has she landed me in a pond. I did 'accidentally' do a 3.5ft wall at a hunter pace, though. Everyone else was going over it, but I was thinking of going around it as it was huge (every jump had a 'go-around') but it was at the end of a big gallop across the field, and Gypsum locked onto that wall like there was a tractor beam and decided come hell or high water, we were jumping it. All I could do was grab mane, hang on, and let her jump. The event photographer was at the wall, and we got a cracking photo.

I agree with everyone who says the OP's horse needs someone to get into his head.

 

[SpottyMare]

I had lessons with a western trainer on my strong horse. Essentially, we used one rein stops - every time he started tanking off (and this included walk) we'd do a one rein stop towards the fence. We also circled him (instead of the stop) some of the time. Worked on one gait at a time - so waited until walk was controlled before moving into trot etc. The response to the tanking has to be instant as well. We also worked on me using my seat more effectively.

 

[tristar]

for me its a brain problem, relate that into he has learned to do something now he needs to un learn it, reeducation , you can spend fortunes on tack and stuff, but that makes it even more confusing, if he was mine i would be thinking, i need to teach him what i want him to do

the only piece of kit i would try on him would be a standing mart, and if the bit was comfortable i probably would not change it

does he understand how to half halt and halt properly?

 

[electric_circus]

Based on my experience with my strong horse who was previously difficult to bit and uncomfortable in just about everything, I’d have someone like Rob Jackson out to have a look. My bitting issues all but disappeared after some physical issues were resolved; they were the symptom, not the cause...

 

[scruffyponies]

OP - I love your post. You have really thought about this, and done your utmost to find the 'key' to your horse.

I am minded to think that you have tried enough combinations of metalwork to rule out bitting as the cause, or cure of his problem. I would take him pottering around the village for a few months. Don't think of it as giving up on him; rather as completely letting him down, and detoxing him from whatever is making him so tense that he pulls. It might help him to understand the rider-horse bond as something other than a competition over his head.

 

[Spotherisk]

Interesting points about maybe there is a bridle problem - I’ve seen some types of bridle (I think in Europe but can’t remember what country) which are essentially just a loop of leather behind the chin holding the bit in place, actually I think there was a fairly well known show jumper who used this too?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I had a big horse who pulled like a train out hunting. The only bit I could hold him in was a mikmar. He detested the nose piece, though, and I had to take it off.

I have heard of big successes with a peewit, but it didn't work on mine.

.

I lent my PeeWee bit to an eventer friend for her young strong horse, who she was struggling to turn/steer/slow x-country. It worked a treat. She used it until he understood what was needed. I got the PeeWee after being tanked off with by a Clydesdale, who just set her neck and went. It worked for us and the IDx, who came in a Dutch gag went very well in it too.

However, OP, although it might be worth trying a PeeWee if you haven't already done so, I would be more inclined to explore the 'headache' route, having had a horse whose headache was caused by a food intolerance and knowing what a difference it made to her when we got that sorted out.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I havr ridden some incredibly strong horses in my time - and up until a few weeks ago I still rode The Reprobate every day in nothung but a jointed full cherk snaffle. But he was a racehorse and he knew what he was supposed to do. Riding them it's all about technique not strength and this is not the same as your horse.

I would go back to basics if you have checked everything else out and forget about jumping for a while.

Sorry if it has already been asked - I haven't read the whole thread - what does he do loose schooling? Does he bomb into them head in the air or does he relax and lob round?

 

[Bellaboo18]

What's he like hacking out? If he will plod around the lanes I'd do that for a while. I'd guess he's running because of anxiety if he's been asked to do too much/more than he's comfortable with in the past. I'd then bring him in to work slowly.

 

[Sandstone1]

Very strange idea I know but what about a animal communicator?
I've no idea if it works but if you've tried everything else may be worth a shot?!

 

[honetpot]

I once had a mare that would do 0-60 in a breath, but the rest of the time was easily controled in a snaffle. I learned to ride more with my seat and ride every stride, which means literally thinking about everything she was doing all the time.
I would try a different method of riding, where you can stop turn, to start off with only at walk, without rein pressure and the idea of changing tack to western seems a good one. Even go back to voice aids.
Its a long time ago but I had a ex-show jumper on long term loan, and he had done very little trotting and was really unbalanced so would just go faster and faster. Learning to use your bodyweight to block the speeding up,you set the rhythm, if they go any faster you reset back to walk, you do not have to be heavy to do it, is a really easy technique.

 

[Tardebigge]

I had one years ago that was incredibly strong.
As other pp's have suggested, I would also examine the bridle fitting/his actual head, in case the fault lies there.
I/we tried many things with our puller. A kineton was okay some days, a double bridle others, it all depended on his mood. We found the element of surprise by constantly changing the metalware kept him on the hop. Also, riding him in just a long cheeked curb bit with a grackle was fairly effective. A lot of it was down to technique though, and checking him before he got to the 'I'm not listening' stage. He was a terrible worrier, and keeping him sweet and anxiety free also helped - if he got het up (about anything, not just ridden stuff) he was more likely to tank off with you. The only other thing I can recommend is some weights work to increase your strength...

 

[Regandal]

I also suggest a bridle check. The horse bit fit people do them, well worth the money.

 

[Amirah]

Someone on here (can't remember who, sorry, but thank you whoever you were) posted this interesting link a long time ago and I saved it, might be helpful?

http://peterdecosemo.weebly.com/blog/he-pulls-like-a-bloody-train1

 

[littleshetland]

I've 'speed' read this, so if I'm repeating what others have said, apologies. I'm assuming that out hacking doing road work, he's a plod? and I'm assuming that he becomes unbearably strong when being schooled in an arena? Assuming that all health and tack checks are ok...I would suggest you bore the pants off him. Just walk work in the arena, keep the jumps there and work round them, but stay in walk for weeks - when you feel he's expecting no more than boring walking, ask for a few steps of trot, then back to walk....gradually, gradually when he's responsive to this then try a canter circle. lots of praise when he comes 'back' to you. Make sure his food is very basic fibre - nothing heating and lots of patience. Good luck.

 

[scruffyponies]

Someone on here (can't remember who, sorry, but thank you whoever you were) posted this interesting link a long time ago and I saved it, might be helpful?

http://peterdecosemo.weebly.com/blog/he-pulls-like-a-bloody-train1

Where's a 'love' button when you need it?

 

[SpottyMare]

Can't edit my original post, but wanted to add that at the same time, we also went bitless (nothing strong), just to take the metalwork out of the equation.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Someone on here (can't remember who, sorry, but thank you whoever you were) posted this interesting link a long time ago and I saved it, might be helpful?

http://peterdecosemo.weebly.com/blog/he-pulls-like-a-bloody-train1

I think that is a really good article. Lots of information, no waffle and short enough to read in a couple of minutes.

Also, it reminds me a little of something I do with a horse that spooks in a particular spot or the manège or arena. It can be place where a pigeon has dropped from a beam down to the sand, a reflection off the windscreen of a parked car, a tractor that is an inch and a half away from where it usually is, or just an invisible troll.

After a spook, I circle the horse around two or three times, each time going a bit closer to where the scary place is, and each time pausing there for between ten and thirty seconds. I drop the reins, let the horse look around while I talk to it and stroke its neck and ears. If the horse shuffles its feet around, I pick up the reins but I don't try to hold it absolutely still; if it starts to try to walk away from there, I keep it in place to within a couple of steps.

On the last circle, I get the horse right into the scary place and we stay there for two or three minutes, and by now the horse is usually perfectly calm, having got over whatever it was that was scary.