Stronger bit needed or just more training?

[DreamingIsBelieving]

I need some bit advice! I part loan a 15.1hh heavy traditional cob - 6 years but his training is behind (been used for pony trekking mostly since he was broken in). I don't want to be one of those people whose first solution to every problem is a new piece of tack, but I feel that every time we go hacking I've constantly tugging and pulling away at his mouth because that's all he responds to (and even then the reaction very delayed - not responsive at all!). I know he's not got a hard mouth as such, because in the school he does respond to light rein aids (except turning, but I think that's a training issue!). It's hacking that's the problem. In company he's fine (usually!), but hacking out alone has been a challenge. We have made improvements - he used to tank off randomly and completely ignore any rein aids. We're done with the tanking off now. I brought him back to basics, first just walking, then introducing bursts of trot, bringing him right back to walk as soon as he showed any signs of rushing. Thing is I'm constantly having to slow his pace - he just wants to rush all the time! Most of the time he does respond to rein aids, but only very strong rein aids! I just worry that if I carry on as I am I'm going to end up with a horse with a very hard mouth!
The other day I took him up a track that his other loaner often canters him up, however I have previously got him walking and trotting up it in the controlled manner. This time as soon as he hit the track he stomped off in a speedy trot, fair enough, he thinks we should be trotting. I'll tell him otherwise. He was having none of it, he completely ignored me - it was as if someone had cut my reins! Eventually I managed to steer him into the verge of the track (for a second I thought he was going to carry on straight down the embankment!) which stopped him. After a moment I turned him back into the track and set off again - he was fine! I even asked for a canter further up the track which was reasonably controlled (although again - very slow to respond to my rein aids asking him to slow back to trot).
He doesn't evade the bit in any way from what I can tell when I'm riding him, just completely ignores it! I do lots of transitions out hacking, halt-walk, walk-trot. It seems to make no difference - he will respond, but not immediately and not off light rein aids. He's ridden in a Neue Schule Tranz Angled Lozenge Baucher, which works fine for him in the school. I just wonder if a stronger bit for hacking may be in order. I know for fact that his pain threshold is very high - he's as hard as nails! Typical cob! He had a nice roll over a big rock sticking up in the field the other day! He also knocks himself around on things and doesn't seem bothered one bit! Uses sharp objects as scratching posts, that sort of thing. So it makes to sense to me that maybe the bit he's in just isn't enough of a deterrent to stop him going at his pace, not mine!
At the moment I'm managing, tugging and pulling away, but I can't carry on like this otherwise I'm sure I'll ruin his mouth! I also feel like our progression has hit a dead end, and can go no further until this issue is sorted out. But I want to make sure that a stronger bit is really the solution before I bring this up with the powers that be.
The bit I have in mind is a Waterford, as it seems lots of cobs in particular go well in it. It also doesn't seem too strong, compared to some others I really don't think I'd feel comfortable riding in (especially when I know he can be soft in the mouth when he wants to be!).

Thoughts (and well done for getting this far!)?

 

[JillA]

Unless he understands and is trained to recognise your bit aids, it is just a piece of metal in his mouth. Stronger/sharper/more pressure isn't going to help that, what he needs is to be conditioned to know that slight pressure on the bit means slow down (in conjunction with your seat of course, the bit isn't the be-all and end-all) and schooling so he accepts your instructions without question.

 

[oldie48]

I'm really not any sort of expert and 'm sure you'll get loads of better replies but surely if he responds to light rein aids in the school, it's a hacking issue, although as an ex trekking pony I suspect he's had very little proper schooling. I think you may have a couple of things going on here, firstly if he's been used for trekking he's used to being in company and may feel a bit anxious out on his own (I'm assuming that you are on your own?) so he may rush because he's tense and wanting to get home. Also, if the other loaner is trotting or cantering in the same places every time he's hacked, his expectation may be that you will also do this. Long term, getting him more responsive to your seat and better schooled will be the answer but short term, personally, I'd have no problem using a stronger bit as you need to be safe.

 

[Micropony]

I agree with Oldie48. If he responds to light rein aids in the school and on the ground, my conclusion would be that he understands what you are asking, just disinclined to comply for whatever reason while hacking. Does he definitely understand "stop" on the ground, from a very light aid, in a variety of places (school, yard, field, track, road)? If he isn't the brightest spark it could be possible he hasn't generalised what he's learnt in the school to apply it in other situations.
Or it could be his way of showing nerves or anxiety because he's not yet comfortable hacking alone. I am not the best person to advise you how to deal with that, as I always prefer to hack with others.
Always difficult when you're not the only person riding him - if his other person sees hacking as an excuse to charge around the countryside at speed, always trots and canters in the same places and isn't bothered about control you are fighting an uphill battle.
In your position I would take the view that safety comes first - if you're having to run him into hedges to stop him, that's really not good, and if you need to bit him up for a while to be safe then I think that's a perfectly legitimate thing to explore.
One other thought, possibly a very stupid one, could you train "stop" from a neck strap?

 

[Goldenstar]

Training stop from a neck strap is always a good tool to have in the box .
While I am not a fan of bitting up horses and it's difficult to say what's best when you have not seen the behaviour it does sound as if a change of bitting for hacking would be safer and more pleasant all round .

 

[Tnavas]

You are doing all the right things with the schooling and in time he will improve.

In the meantime I think for your own safety you could do with bitting him up. I don't normally agree with this but safety for all is paramount.

I'd suggest that you try a full cheeked Waterford.

I'd also recommend discussing with the other sharer a plan of action. Horses a so creatures of habit, maybe she lets him hoon off at that spot.

You say he finds turning difficult, I would have a chiro check him over, if his neck is not right he will find turning hard. Also have teeth checked as some horses will run away from the pain.

 

[Barnacle]

He can't turn because he is a 6 year-old with no schooling... That's totally normal and he'll improve the more work you do.

As for him tanking off, for me the fact you wrote a multiparagraph post focusing on the bit and rein aids says it all. You should be teaching him to stop off seat too. If you work with him in the school using very clear seat signals along with your rein aids, you'll find you have a far more responsive horse. Many horses will simply brace against the bit and keep going if you pull back. They need half-halts with the rein and seat.

I'd couple this with some voice commands followed with some proper motivation (and by that I do mean food). It's amazing how quickly you can get a horse to go from canter to stand if he gets a reward for it!

Even if you don't want to do this, loads of transitions are important. I think people think this means spend 5 minutes doing walk-trot-walk-halt in the school. Do it for an hour every 5-10 strides. Every time you ride. Can be within paces as well as between... And I would couple them with clear voice commands and start on the lunge. That way when you are on him, it will be crystal clear when you've asked for something and when you haven't. Particularly for a trekking pony, being in a specific space where he is used to going fast and not feeling resistance is permission to go... But if you put "go" on command, that will change.

I'd also be pretty pissed at the other loaner. She/he should be taking responsibility for training too and not going around cantering. In fact, I'd be tempted to stop him cantering out altogether until you both know you'll be able to keep him under control.

As a final thought, you mentioned he has a high pain threshold... Whether or not this is the case, the implication is that you want a stronger bit so he experiences pain when you pull him up. Perhaps you hadn't given it much explicit thought but this isn't something I think is really ok. The bit should only be an annoyance to the horse - not a source of pain. In fact, if it is a source of pain, it can easily lead to the horse tanking off in panic if you maintain a pull or developing worse behaviours like rearing to evade. The real trick is to simply use the bit for direct communication - that is, for it to become equivalent to a voice command so it can be used very lightly but effectively because the horse understands what it means, rather than because the horse reacts to it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I used to loan a cob that was extremely responsive to all aids when schooling (you just had to *think* and he knew) but would tank off on hacks. I actually got him because he tanked off with his former loaner and jumped a five bar gate with her clinging on for dear life. At 23 he really did know better.

Anyhoo... I put him in a Kimblewick (had been in a single jointed eggbut snaffle) which he actually seemed far happier in (flash came off and he no longer tried to open his mouth) and put in some time schooling. I also schooled on hacks which really helped keep his focus. He ended up being light and responsive to all aids on hacks with no tanking, so for that horse a change of bit was the right thing.

I completely agree with others that voice aids are a good thing to have trained and that the bit should not cause pain. Do you have an instructor who can help you?

 

[DreamingIsBelieving]

Sorry, should have made it more clear in my first post - I do use seat aids as well, but these too go ignored the majority of the time, or they have the opposite effect! I'll admit my seat aids need work so that part may be me. Slowing my movement down has no effect, and closing my thighs around him definitely makes him speed up (maybe I'm doing it wrong, but it works with other horses!).

He responds beautifully to voice aids. In the school I can bring him back to walk with a voice aid alone. Out hacking I can pop him into trot with a voice aid alone. Unfortunately he chooses to ignore most downward transitional voice aids out hacking! Having said that I took him out yesterday made him do walk-trot transitions all the way up the aforementioned track - and he actually became responsive almost to the same level that he is in the school! Which does make me wonder if maybe I just need to be patient with him...

And no, of course the bit shouldn't cause pain, but high pain threshold = high annoyance threshold (not a phrase I'm familiar with, hence I didn't use it!). What I wanted to get across is that things don't bother him like they bother other horses. Tie him up and he'll lean on his leadrope - he just doesn't have an aversion to pressure that other horses have.

I do have an instructor I could (and plan to) talk to when I next have a lesson with them, but they don't (and can't, as it's only when hacking alone that he does this) see him, or me, when the issue arises. Something I could which may actually be really helpful is ask them to take him out on a hack alone, to see how he goes for them. May possibly look into doing that, if it gives me a better idea of what the issue is. Until then I'm really interested in hearing a variety of opinions/ideas regarding the issue, hence posting on here .

His other loaner doesn't bomb around on him. But there's a limited number of places to canter around here and as she often rides in company, she doesn't have to worry about him tanking off, so she takes advantage of the one great canter track we have. I can't really blame her.

The only thing stopping me, as some people have mentioned, is the chance that it could be fear. I find him difficult to read (he always has a worried look in his eye, so it's hard to distinguish when he is genuinely worried about something!). Sometimes I sense his uneasiness, but other times I sense his cockiness. There's a field I used to ride in (that's where the tanking off began - it's now off limits until I get him completely perfect on the bridleways!). He always seemed nervous in that field and I was sure the bolting was a genuine nervousness, but now he always pricks his ears and naps towards it whenever I have to pass it, and I think "why would he do that if the field made him anxious?". I really can't figure him out. If it is fear, then how can I do anything to improve it? I hack him out alone a lot, it he was going to get used to it, surely he would have by now?

When I rode yesterday I tried to pay particular attention to what he was doing with his bit, and I've noticed he seems to hold it in his mouth and suck/chew at it (without opening his mouth at all). Worth mentioning that in the school he doesn't mess with his bit at all. Interestingly, he managed to get gold of a bracken leaf and while he was eating it (and walking at the same time), the rushing stopped. Whether it pacified or simply distracted him, I don't know. Next time I plan to feed him sugar lumps during the halt transitions to see if that has any affect .

I know I've said a lot but I also want to give a bit of background. I've loaned him for a year. When I first began loaning him, he had an issue out hacking - he would just stop dead. You wouldn't know where he was going to do it, and sometimes he wouldn't, but when he did the only thing you could do to get him going again was to beat him up with a schooling whip - something I'm ashamed to say I did a few times (I was advised to) but soon decided I would never do again. So I started taking him out with my Mum walking with me, and he loved following my Mum. Eventually I got him going in front of my Mum, then my Mum would gradually drop further and further behind, until she didn't even need to be there anymore. We had a few golden months of perfect trouble free hacking, I would canter him anywhere I liked and he would not get silly or strong. But as a result of this increased workload he got fitter and lost weight, and he just didn't know what to do with all the extra energy! This, combined with me doing a lot of fast work with him, is what I believe triggered the tanking off. So I believe I'm partly to blame. Then as I said I brought him back to basics yet again, until I got to this point here - tanking off is almost eradicated, but he's still too strong and just not responsive enough to my aids.

Gosh I never knew I had so much to say until I started writing it down!

 

[Barnacle]

I wonder if it might be worth you taking him out on a leadrope/lunge line and using the areas he is used to tanking off in to do some groundwork... Horses that nap and get beat up often nap even more afterwards because their initial fearfulness is reinforced. That's a lot harder to then deal with than the original anxiety and could well be the source of the problem here even though the original problem is now sorted. Groundwork makes horses less anxious when ridden (according to studies measuring stress responses in ridden horses that do groundwork versus those that do not). If you can walk him like you did with your mum - but you lead him - to the cantering spot and then lunge him a little and then hop on and do some transitions, he may begin to think differently about his trips out. Even if it's not to do with anxiety and is about habit, taking him there, dismounting, and then doing in-hand work to get him listening to your voice commands in that context might help you quite a lot as he'll start to associate being ridden out with unexpected bouts of groundwork - and you can do this anywhere - keep him guessing. Doesn't need to be for very long either... 5 minutes and then move on as long as he stays calm.

Also for seat aids, try bearing down into the saddle and "pulling up" with your inner thighs rather than simply tightening around him. Perhaps practice doing this without any other aids to get him to stop in the school... I have experience of a few different horses that supposedly tank off with their riders and it always seems to be because the rider stiffens, tightens their legs and then pulls.

Does the other loaner have trouble stopping him?

 

[DreamingIsBelieving]

I wonder if it might be worth you taking him out on a leadrope/lunge line and using the areas he is used to tanking off in to do some groundwork... Horses that nap and get beat up often nap even more afterwards because their initial fearfulness is reinforced. That's a lot harder to then deal with than the original anxiety and could well be the source of the problem here even though the original problem is now sorted. Groundwork makes horses less anxious when ridden (according to studies measuring stress responses in ridden horses that do groundwork versus those that do not). If you can walk him like you did with your mum - but you lead him - to the cantering spot and then lunge him a little and then hop on and do some transitions, he may begin to think differently about his trips out. Even if it's not to do with anxiety and is about habit, taking him there, dismounting, and then doing in-hand work to get him listening to your voice commands in that context might help you quite a lot as he'll start to associate being ridden out with unexpected bouts of groundwork - and you can do this anywhere - keep him guessing. Doesn't need to be for very long either... 5 minutes and then move on as long as he stays calm.

Also for seat aids, try bearing down into the saddle and "pulling up" with your inner thighs rather than simply tightening around him. Perhaps practice doing this without any other aids to get him to stop in the school... I have experience of a few different horses that supposedly tank off with their riders and it always seems to be because the rider stiffens, tightens their legs and then pulls.

Does the other loaner have trouble stopping him?

Groundwork is a good idea. Leading him out in hand is something I'd considered but I'll be honest and say that the idea of doing a 1 1/2 hour hack on foot did not appeal to me! But unexpected bouts of groundwork sounds acceptable . Only wish he was easier to mount from the ground - he wanders off, not only from the ground but from the mounting block also. It's not naughtiness I'm sure, he's just a bit dippy and I genuinely think he thinks "Ooh, grass!" and thinks nothing of walking of when I have one foot in the stirrup! Maybe a handful of horse treats on the floor'll keep him still long enough . He is the most easily distracted horse I've ever come across. Sees a walker in the distance, then trips over his own feet because he's not looking where he's going. Hears a strange noise while tied up in the yard, turns his head to look and almost knocks me out in the process. I'll never forget doing trotting poles with him one time; just as I turn him to face the poles some girls from the yard walk past with a wheelbarrow, ears prick up, forgets the poles, crashes through every pole, completely oblivious. How he didn't end up with his nose in the sand I do not know! At first it used to annoy the heck out of me but now I've learnt to find it endearing .

As for how he is with his other loaner, it's quite intriguing. She usually only hacks in company, but on the occasion when she does hack alone, she too experiences his unresponsiveness to the aids. She has been working on transitions with him as well, although I doubt she uses them to the extent that I do. She's never had him tank off though, even during the time when he really was doing it every time I hacked him (we're past that now, thank goodness!). I don't know if she's ever attempted to canter him alone though (something I have only just managed to do with him in the confidence that he won't shoot off at a gallop). I do know however that while riding in company he has overtaken the lead horse on at least a couple of occasions while cantering - so he's certainly not a different horse when she's riding him! Now I'm wondering if there may a combination of factors at play - he might be strong, but I think there is some anxiousness there as well. Maybe I'll sort the anxiousness out, then see what I'm left with after that.
I think maybe groundwork/leading in hand is a good place to start. When my Mum used to walk out with us he developed an attachment to her - he used to nicker at her whenever she came down to the yard, so he clearly found reassurance in having her there with him. It was really sweet actually. It would be great for him to be able to draw that same reassurance from me while I'm riding him.