stroppy, nappy but talented 5 yr old - any tips? *bit long*

arwenplusone

arwenplusone

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 January 2007
Messages
6,160
Location
York
www.freewebs.com
I've posted about my mare a few times but she was pretty horrid this weekend - just wondering if there is anything I can do differently that might help.

She's just turned 5 - I have had her about 4 months. She's been professionally produced (very well IMHO) and is a v talented girly. wonderful jump on her. We've only been doing up to 1m as don't want to push it and I'm just getting used to her.

Anyway, I am finding that she is a little work shy and v nappy. On a few occasions she has napped to the point of bucking and rearing constantly. When she comes off my leg she is lovely but sometimes I really have to kick her/use the stick a lot.
this weekend we went out to a local centre, just for practice. (in the lorry, on her own) she was lovely for about a hour, jumping some big grids etc. then she just decided she'd had enough and threw all her toys out of the pram in a proper tantrum. Sod's law I wanted to finish then but had to carry on and work her through it.

Ok so after about 30 mins of fighting and bucking etc I gotn off her (*hangs head in shame as knows this is wrong*). Lunged her and got back on. She was fine.
This morning took her out for hack and she tries same thing. Unfortunately I had to scream at her and beat her in front of a large family out for their morning consitiutional.
blush.gif
Anyway, persevered and although I had to stop traffic twice I rode her through it.

Anyway sorry this is so long. couple of questions.

1) Is this a 5 yr old stroppy thing, likely to have manifested now because she is 'trying it on'
2) Should I wear spurs to get her more off the leg and listening
3) Should I keep taking her out on her own - I do this on purpose as need to be firm with her but perhaps our relationship isn't established enough?
3) If I end up in a battle of wills what should I do better to end it - keep clouting her and sending her forward, wait til she gets bored (could be forever) or some other method. I have been using my voice a lot (think growling like big predator) but this is ceasing to have effect.

My normal way of dealing is legs, then legs and voice, then crop, finally voice and crop - hard.

Any advice, thoughts etc? (I have tried the 'softly softly approach' and she laughed in my face).

To be honest, she's a sweet mare but in these situations it's like a 'F*ck you' switch has gone off in her head!
Casting my memory back - she's just like I was as a teenager!
blush.gif
grin.gif


PS: Have thought about sending her to be schooled but tbh there's no point as it's me she needs to respect.
mad.gif
 
Had she had a break at all since she was backed? If she hasnt been turned away in the last year or so then that would be my first thing to try.
And then take the pressure off- if she's going to be nice horse then its worth preserving her a bit so drop back the demands and the work level for a month or 2.

It may help!!
 

Thanks Bossanova - actually (forgot to say) she was backed and then put in foal so she has had a break and then was properly brought into work and imported here - but I was wondering if I am pushing her too far - perhaps I should keep sessions down to 30mins and keep them interesting for her?
 
I wouldnt be working a young horse for any longer than 30-40mins to be honst! And hard work like grids and gymnastic jumping, 20mins jumping should be more than enough. SOunds like a lovely horse, but I would be tempted to work each session with small goals, like "I want to buil the grid upto a bounce to a stride to an upright then an oxer" get to that once nicely, with just aimng towards that and only that in the session, even if it happens within 15mins of the session, get off, pat her and call it a day. It is very easy to sour young horses, and she sounds well worth preserving! Good luck with her!
smile.gif
 
Thanks KatB - I think you are very right and perhaps she was stroppy this morning cos I did so much on sat.

She's currently ridden min 4 times a week and lunged 1/2 times. I only jump her once a week but perhaps I should cut out some of the other stuff?..
Definately don't want to sour her. I know it's naughty to post them in here but her's some piccys! She's lovely.
vatoucha07.jpg

vatoucha06.jpg
 
Lovely mare. I would just keep life simple for her, work on strengthening her up, short schooling/jumping sessions, and lots of hacking where possible. My 5 yr old is worked like this, he goes in the school prob twice a week when competing, and one of those times will be on a diff yard, the rest of the time he hacks and still he can get a bit stale in the scool, so we have to keep things as varied as possible! She really is gorgeous though.
 
Mine tries it on and i think you just have to be really assertive and tell her this is the way it is and follow through..you have to be more determined than her..i found mine after a year has began to establish a better rapor with me now and respects my decision now when i want to go forwards..she still has moments but they are not half as bad now. Good Luck.
 
oh she is gorgeous !! I would keep the sessions small and simple as people have said - aim to achieve one thing and if it happens in 10 mins great get off !!

I rode my 6yo today and wanted to go out and jump a course he to can be nappy and stroppy but very talented - he warmed up jumped everything in site so i finished gave him a huge pat !! My liveries thought i was nuts but it does work !!!

and yes i would take her out on her own still xx
 
It's interesting to read other people's thoughts on work levels for a youngster. Am also bit paranoid about doing too much or too little.

TBH if he does what I ask in the school in ten minutes then I call that a day, like to quit while I'm ahead!

She is lush BTW
 
Thanks guys - just need to get it into her head that I'm boss. but the positive reinforcement - stopping when she does something right. sounds like the way to go!
smile.gif
 
We've only really experienced a F** you switch in one horse and that was Monty.
I swear when he got like that it was as if he was in another time zone or his brain was many miles away from his body.
We went back to basics and did lots of schooling so that at least he was responsive when you asked, and yes, we had two mega fights too lasting three hours over passing a place where some pigs had run towards him down a narrow lane, my husband just rode him through it and kept quietly making him walk in the direction he wanted to go. I drove down the lane at one point and saw this horse rearing full height on the tarmac and was horrified to see it was him.. His method was he would not get off or back down, but would just insist he went in the direction he wanted. After three hours at walking pace he gave in, but I don't really think we won..
In the arena he would some days be amazing, others an absolute bastard.
at competitions he would get 75% in a dressage test but try adding any jumping to that and it dropped to 59%!
We tried every damn trick we knew to be honest,as he was so very talented on his good days.
Eventually I suggested we give him a competition dose of acp at home (sedalin paste) and he was transformed into a willing happy horse. It was incredibly sad because we realised he was never going to do the eventing job we wanted him for, and he was sold on. (we only treid the sedalin for a week and stopped using it three weeks before selling him!)Last week we got a call to say after a year they too have given up on him and he is being sold yet again.
I'm telling you this so you don't do what we did, persevere too long. By the sounds of it your mare may well settle, she's only very young (he wasn't backed until 6, part of his problem) and she will get better.
I would I think try and make life pretty easy for her for a few months. Don't hack out alone, just in company, and make it very relaxed. Take her to a couple of shows and just ride round the ground, put her away and take her home.
Start her on lateral work and when she begins to mess about ask for leg yeild or shoulder in, anything to take her mind of argueing with you about going forwards.
One big question , did she misbehave with her backer or just with you?
I wonder if perhaps you are doing a little too much jumping and she is showing her lack of confidence in her behaviour.
The secret with young horses is actually very simple, although there comes a point where they argue and try to misbehave, you have to be in a position to either meet the problem sideways by diverting to asking something different, or be tough enough to know you can win the battle.
Instead of your schooling whip try something that makes a noise , and use that instead, if you feel very capable of using the spurs only when necessary fine, but don't otherwise.
I would go back to basics, get her forward from as little leg as possible (halt to trot works well) and take the pressure off for a while.
I think if you do this within a couple of months of chilling out she may stop fighting.
If not you may end up with a Monty on your hands, I have to admit he taught CCJ so much about nappy bloody minded horses he was worth every second of ownership, but I wouldn't persevere that long again..
One other thing, why not send her back to the backers for another couple of weeks with hacking out specifically your aim.. I know you feel that defeats the object but I think perhaps you should accompany her too..
wink.gif
 
TO me I would say that you were asking too much physically and mentally of your horse. It is best to do little and often with youngsters
 
If i was you id give her a complete break from jumping. Do some fun things like box her out somewhere and go for a really long ride, take her to a gallops to let off some steam and concentrate on hacking out for about a month. Then go back to some schooling and jump her no more than once a week and no more than 30mins.

Im not surprised she got p*ssed off jumping for over an hour
crazy.gif


I have a 6yo who is also talented (bought to do dressage tho) and he can nap and get p*ssed off with me if im not careful. At the moment im working really hard on varying his work. He goes out hacking around 3 times a week to do hill work which inturn helps strengthen him over his back for the dressage. I also take him loose jumping once a month (he was bred to jump) whch he loves, and i make sure he gets as much time out in his field as possible to avoid him going stale on me. I do pole work incorporated into my schooling too.
 
Would say I agree she should be out in the field as much as possible, and having fun with other horses on hacks, but at five she should also be strong enough to do more than a few minutes work, though certainly not an hour's jumping....
Do you have any help with her, how does she go for your trainer?
You've got loads of good suggestions from people, I would seriously try some of them as otherwise you're going to find she only gets worse as the problem seems to have worsened since you last posted about it..
 
i totally agree with the lightening the workload thing. an hour of work including gridwork is a lot for a 5 yr old.
i'd take her in the school, do about 20-25 mins, and then when you get a really nice movement, immediately get off, pat her, give her a treat. call her bluff a bit, stop before she gets stroppy hopefully!
i'd also hack out with a friend a few times, she's only a baby really and it might be fear as well as playing up.
when she is naughty, i think you're doing the right thing.
i'd be wary of putting spurs on because if she starts playing up and you forget you've got them and exasperatedly give her a good kick, you might end up in orbit (happened to a friend on her mare...!)
very best of luck, she's lovely.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Im not surprised she got p*ssed off jumping for over an hour
crazy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry - I actually wasn't jumping her for an hour, just riding. Warmed up pretty slowly and since I was on my own had to get off to change the grid myself so she had lots of breaks. I only did the grid 5 or 6 times. I do totally agree about varying the work and finishing on a good note. Annoying thing about this weekend is that I actually HAD finished (she just didn't think so) - looking back, If I had maybe finished 10 mins earlier I wouldn't have had the problem.

She goes ok for my trainer, has only ridden her a couple of times and she has never been naughty with her but I can go for a month without her being nappy with me.
I do agree though that maybe I am doing too much in general with her, but before she came to me they were taking her out jumping once a week (which is all I do jumping wise atm) so maybe it's a cumulative thing.

With regards to hacking I have tried to take her out and let her have some steam but she won't open up (think she has been quite restrained in her production) doesn't seem to know how to open up. I have thought about taking her hunting to get back some joy at being ridden but want to feel I know her a little better first.


HH - thanks for the reply - hope I don't have a Monty (!) but what you said makes very good sense, especially the noise thing - I do growl at her a bit and sometimes that works - is less confrontational than a full on smack!
Unfortunately I don't know her backer as she was produced in Holland and has only been in the UK for 5 months or so.

When she's good she's lovely and I don't want to spoil this - I wouldn't say the problem has worsened as such, it has just presented itself more than once now and I do NOT want it to be a habit.

Will reduce the workload and try and get her doing fun relaxed things. Thanks all for the comments
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
With regards to hacking I have tried to take her out and let her have some steam but she won't open up (think she has been quite restrained in her production) doesn't seem to know how to open up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can fairly safely say that my mare doesn't have this problem!!!
blush.gif
If you would like to take her to the gallops any time for a bit of fun you're welcome to come with me, i know a couple round York. As I mentioned before when you get moved there is Escrick Park to have a hack around and bob over a few XC fences which I'm sure she'd enjoy.

Also is it the GG centre you go to for jumping? I'm going to be going up there fairly regularly over the winter (probably weekends) so if it's any help I could arrange to meet you up there and give you a hand with fences/grids etc, much easier when there's a couple of you!

My two penn'th on the napping thing would be as others have said to keep sessions short and varied, and try and hack her out in company to get her thinking a bit more forward and help her confidence. I would also think about giving her a holiday, even if it's just for 2 or 3 weeks. She's maybe just getting a bit stale and a while chilling in the field might freshen her up a bit.

She is absolutely beautiful btw, what a stunner!!
 
See i think thats were your prolem lies - when you said she wont open up out hacking. It sounds to me like what she needs is to really learn to open up and go forwards.

Is there a gallops you can hire out and go with a friend whos got a quick horse she can follow? This will teach her to open up, and i can garentee she will love it!!

Shes really stunning by the way!
 
P_G you are 100% right about the opening up/going forwards - think I will concentrate a bit more on getting this out of her (in a non-school way!)

Donadea - gallops sounds like a plan and the GG centre (they have gallops there although v small). It would be great to meet up though, you'll have to PM me when you go.
grin.gif
She's a bit better XC - although very green. not taken her to Escrick yet as waiting til we move but I'm sure that will help.

She does hack out with another horse a lot of the time to give confidence but I think it is good to take her on her own once in a while (she knows the route and is not too spooky in company).

Have tried putting her behind another to open up but she doesn't really do it (I have to use pony club legs to keep up!
blush.gif
) ) which is unusual for a nappy mare - when she does canter on she still is feeling like she has to keep an outline and is v restricted - I actually think it's a bit sad because I want her to enjoy herself.

Recently tried a bit of pairs jumping (only 2'6) just for fun - she was v forward going and jumped lovely but was a bit Kamikaze & out of control (and was esp. dodgy as our partner kocked a few fences) - I don't want her to learn to rush. It's a fine balance lol!

RE the time off - might be a good option. don't think current yard/arena is doing her any favours so the move may help. (plus access to loads more off road hacking which is so much safer). Could give a couple of weeks off and/or par down the work load until we get to new place.

I think sometimes she 'just doesn't want to' but others she really enjoys herself. I also think she finds some surfaces hard work (deep sand gallops etc) as she tends to be much better on grass.

I need to find the key to her really - It is early days.
smile.gif
 
How long have you had her? Im assuming she was ridden in draw reins as a youngster before you bought her? Probably where her problem of not being able to open up has come from
frown.gif


She really is so gorgeous - perhaps some time out in the field, even if its only a couple of weeks off, would help too?

Hows she bred? (you mightve posted it but i cant remember, sorry!)
 
I've only had her 3/4 months so she's just got to the 'I'm settled now lets see what I can get away with' phase.

She's bred well, not phenomenally but nice lines.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/vatoucha

Think you are right about the constant use of draw reins
frown.gif
(perhaps I should do some short sessions of long reining or loose jumping. (she does seem to enjoy that) to try and uncurl her!
 
loose jumping has definately helped Archie to open up, its great as they get to go around freely and can open up and really use themselves without having a rider interfer!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top