Stroppy yearling - long

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Brief back story, gained a tb weanling filly at 5.5 months, she had had minimal but fairly rough handling and was the first foal for a very indulgent mum plus was separated from the herd as mum attacked all near her baby.
Brat child thought nothing of biting, kicking and boxing her way to get what she wanted and I have worked super hard to be fairly safe round her.
However she just doesn't like contact with people. I can be scratching a good spot only for her to suddenly turn and lash out. She is the smallest alpha mare I've ever met. Currently on box rest ATM with possible upper arm fracture ( we didn't xray as didn't want to risk boxing her to vets) so has a month in. Tonight I went in to hay her, she walked up and I put my hand on her chest and said back, usual command. Her ears went flat back and she tried to take a chunk out of my leg ( made contact) and I instantly slapped her once on the chest, she then went vertical and walked towards me striking out followed by me shoulder charging her to the back of the box. She then stood like a donkey and I continued with my haying.
If this was an isolated incident I would put it down to box fever but the other day when I was mucking out she attempted to corner and kick out. She only gained a poo pick over her backside. This has happened several times including in a field ( I had the audacity to stroke past the allowed area) when she turned and lashed out several times (that time I had a headcollar in hand).
You get the picture
I'm happy to deal with her behaviour, generally self defence and a slap which I don't feel is unjustified, you can yell , growl and flap to your hearts content which makes no odds to her. My puzzle is how to stop the initial strop, I call it her evil twin taking over as she can also be the sweetest thing. Any ideas?
No point having a little one if I can't even cuddle it without using judo to hold it down :-(
 
It sounds like quite a violent relationship. Have you thought of getting help from someone experienced with youngsters? Or maybe one of the Kelly Marks associates?
 
It probably sounds harsh reading it back as I've only put the bad bits in. 90% of the time she is a perfectly well adjusted yearling and can be handled normally and easily. Its just sometimes she will walk across the field, say hi then turn and double barrel out. Or today when there was no reason to react like she did she had just eaten tea and I was topping up ad lib hay.
 
I really feel for you, but five months is very young to be socialised to humans on her own imo, and I do think that if she is now being stroppy you have to be very firm. My youngsters were in a family situation and although the mare was very protective from the beginning it was always the stallion from about a week onwards that did the 'babysitting' and onward teaching. Although some mares are a lot more inclined to that than mine was. Sometimes these babies don't get the teaching from their real parents and that's where problems arise. She does sound lovely but confused as to her role, and you need to keep safe so bear that it mind.
 
Tbh the stud weaned her in a disgusting way, she was literally dragged away from mum and put in a huge block of stables completely on her own without even another horse in the area. I was the non dog food option.
She was 1 in April and I'd really hoped she would have settled out of this behaviour as she has 2 super nannies (8yr old tb mare and 22 yr old new forest gelding) so her inter horse behaviour has come on immensely as she initially tried this out on them!
 
It may be that she stays that way, but I just wanted to offer some hope. We bred a colt that attacked me when he was two days old, rearing, gums gnashing, the lot. He went on to kick me, rear and box at me with front feet etc. during his first six months to eighteen months. He was quite horrid.
Our relationship was negative as I was always having to discipline him and I was a bit scared of him as he was a big youngster.
When it came to backing him I was cautious, slow and extra thorough but neither of us were relaxed, which is what I need in a horse.
Then I started clicker training him which allowed our relationship to develop positively for the first time.
I can't tell you the difference it's made, just for a tiny bit of carrot. I firmly believe it's not the carrot, its the ability it gives you to say yes that's exactly right, good boy, and the effect that has in building his confidence and trust.
He and I now have a good relationship, so there is hope for your filly.
 
itsmylife said:
Try getting in touch with sarah Weston who wrote No fear No force. She is great with youngsters.
Click to expand...

I'll second this - or do some groundwork exercises. Moving the feet (politely without aggression - aggression prompts a fight back, as in your slap on her chest - I would fight back too!) and teaching the back up is something they understand - it is something senior horses in a herd do to young upstarts, and horses understand that, subtle as it may seem. Teach pressure and release to begin with, from a deceint halter or headcollar, then a back up and then leading through an obstacle course like shapes on the ground made of poles or cones. Short of being taught polite social behaviour in a herd, which will only have a limited affect on her attitude to humans if she has been so badly handled, this is the way to teach quiet confidence and respect around people.
Trust me, I have been there, and I now have a horse who leads like a puppy dog, ties up for hours if I ask him, moves over politely in his box when asked and stands for ages on cue. And he is wb x tb with weight on his side!
 
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I don't know if this will help, but if you can arrange for any correction to come from some source other than yourself, that should improve your relationship.

Watch how she behaves with her companions in the field and, if necessarty, try to get her in with a more dominant partner who will stand no nonsense. It is quite usual, for example, to put young colts in with a stallion (no female company, or you will have problems!). The stallion keeps the colts in line and teaches them manners.

Another thing, if you have to hand out correction, try to do it in a way that does not make it obvious that you are the source of the unpleasantness. When a youngster comes for you, the instinctive human reaction is to lash out or hit out to defend yourself. The animal will instictively flinch or take avoiding action, and will certainly blame you for attacking it.

Far better (for example), if you can manage, to have a decent sized stick like a broom handle in your hand and let the horse run into it so it is inflicting the unpleantness on itself. Obviously, you need to use some discretion here as you want to cause discomfort without causing damage! If she is inclined to bite, let her bite on something doused with red pepper or English mustard! I'd suggest Cribox, but the stuff stinks and she'd get advance warning. But you get the idea. Then there is your voice -- a loud NO has shock value and can be effective....not that I have all that many stroppy youngsters to deal with, but the principles are the same.
 
You have a traumatised youngster on your hands and I don't believe she is naturally nasty but acting on fear. You say she was roughly handled as a baby whenever anyone did touch her and then weaned in a terrible way. I dont know why some people breed if they are going to be such *****s. Not all tb studs are that way, so it is possible for them to be kind!

What is she like out of a stable and what company is she usually in? My thought is that she needs putting in a herd of youngsters and left to grow up. Your visits with her could be undemanding and positive for her but the best thing for any baby horse is to be living out and growing up. I know you cant at the moment but who are her usual field mates and what is your usual daily routine with her?
 
I would ask an IH associate to come out. I have had the usual tantrums from my filly but she wasn't ever abused so hard for me to comment. I'd just say always handle calmly and don't smack back etc, you need to build trust and this just sets you back, once you earn that bond you just feel things click. Try not to fuss around stroking etc,if you do, get to grips with basic ground manners, backing up before you go in stable etc. My filly was so nippy the first year, everyone told me to pinch her back etc.... made it worse so I thought okay well she's not even allowed to put her face near me unless invited, that way there are no grey areas where it can escalate. Just by calmly moving her face away did just fine.

Just wait till she gets back out, will become much easier.
 
Reading the first post again, I wonder if the foal has learnt her behaviour from her dam? If mum was behaving aggressively to other herd members, maybe the foal thinks that is what she is meant to do too??

A mare here was very possessive of her foal and he turned out a real little spoilt brat! But since weaning, he has changed into a perfect little angel. They can change so quickly with a bit of sensible handling.
 
I know you cant let her get away with it, but I would really use body language and voice rather than hitting her. Make yourself look bigger, growl, clap etc.
 
i have a 2 year old filly who if challenged, is a nasty little ****. Its just her nature...


Shes lovely until pushed or asked to move over, back etc, we are very very slowly getting better as she also used to be highly food aggressive...she still has the hint of that but i can actually pat her while shes eating now which is a big deal.

I found with mine (or finding i should say!), when we have a "moment"....if safe, hold her on a leadrope and just let her work it out that im not going to flip.

(except the time when she was dragging me about in my work shoes...the one time i truly slapped her arse with a leadrope she stood still and was like "eh?"! normally she would ignore me)

same pony has been pasted as a yearling with a crop as she was so bolshy, but she stood there and was like "yeah and?"...and WOULD kick out again if challenged.


Just another perspective on the hitting thing (i agree they need a good slap when they are being dangerous) BUT i think well timed and when its really needed else they arnt stupid they will fight back

My filly is 2nd in command in the field too, dominant mare, shes lovely and finally im working better with her :)

good luck! mine is rising 3 now and thank god only 14.2ish... if she was 16hh i would be admitting defeat!:D
 
Many thanks for all the comments. I hope it doesn't come across as I whack her for any misdemeanor, I'd spend my whole life beating her if so! The majority of the time we manage with a growl or a poke, anything more is reserved for when she attacks and doesn't back down ie corners me, tries to get front feet over my shoulders or just keeps kicking. Several time she has kicked and then kept kicking/boxing until I am forced to back down, something I am reluctant to do and let her be dominant.
She did have a 3 yr old companion who was sadly PTS leaving her with the two older companions.
Mum was a charmer and attacked people as well so from day dot my filly saw that as acceptable.
I am just confused about the unpredictability with her. 9 days out of 10 we will progress and work well, she is an angel on a halter and we've worked through the Sarah Weston book, she will back, turn and walk off a word. Take the halter off and go in 5 minutes later and give her a pat then you get ears flat back, teeth etc.
Ho him, back to the book work, I think I will investigate the clicker training as may distract her whilst she is in.
 
Worth taking a look on here http://www.calmhealthyhorses.com/faqs.htm
If you take as your starting point the fact that a prey animal doesn't waste energy it might need to escape from predators, and if you have done the ground work and established a calm consistent leadership where the horse should feel no need to defend itself, then something systemic may be going on.
With mine, before I knew better, he was magnesium deficient, and when he spooked (which I know now he couldn't help) I would get stroppy with him so that he felt the need to be permanently in self defence mode. If that is your only means of dealing, it escalates to the point where it almost becomes all out war. Now his magnesium is supplemented to a normal level, we have both learned, and have a relationship based on leadership and trust. Worth investigating - so many horses are under pressure and miserable because of something they can't control
 
She's in with a possible upper arm fracture, you hit her on the chest and wondered why she went up?

She sounds traumatised. I'd get past the box rest, then turn her out with sensible older horses and let her be a baby and learn from the bottom of the herd.
 
She's in with a possible upper arm fracture, you hit her on the chest and wondered why she went up?

She sounds traumatised. I'd get past the box rest, then turn her out with sensible older horses for a year minimum and let her be a baby and learn from the bottom of the herd.
 
Patterdale , i opened the door, had her come at me with a fair amount of force with ears flat back. I put my hand on her chest to push her back which is our usual command accompanied with the word back and has been achieved with suitable ground work. She ignored this, still moved forwards (hadn't even stopped) and tried to take a chunk out of my leg which i dodged. I then slapped her on the chest in a hey don't do that way ie not hard. Even when she reared she was still trying to come at me hence why i got close ( less force in the kick) and shoved her to the back. If i hadn't have pushed her she had me cornered by the door and i had to turn my back on her to escape .
This feels more than baby tantrums, those i can ignore and deal with. In struggling with the level of aggression she displays even whilst in the field with her herd .
Trust me , i can't wait to get her out again!
 
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