Struggling to get youngster into an outline

[DappleGreyDaydreamer]

My rising 6 year old boy has come on leaps and bounds in his flatwork over the last 6 months, we've had lessons and asked around the yard for advice and he is much more responsive, supple and willing than I've ever known him! I'd really like to start introducing him to working in a better frame, but it tends to end up in a pulling battle. Gradually he has settled into an outline in walk, but I cannot get one in trot at all and he always seems to be opening his mouth and throwing his head to avoid the contact. I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong, so any tips would be excellent!!

 

[nato]

I'd really like to start introducing him to working in a better frame, but it tends to end up in a pulling battle.

I think start by changing your instructor, as any who advocates a 'pulling battle' is really giving you the wrong information. I'd also be selective about who you ask around your yard - everyone thinks they are an expert on livery yards

It all starts with the leg - the hand contains what the leg provides. Your horse needs to be going forward, working over his back from behind in order to work in a correct outline. From reading previous posts it sounds as if he is not strong enough to give you what you're looking for. Start by doing work to strengthen his topline such as hillwork and cavaletti, and focus on straightness and rhythm in the school - if you do this the outline will follow.

 

[Tnavas]

I think start by changing your instructor, as any who advocates a 'pulling battle' is really giving you the wrong information. I'd also be selective about who you ask around your yard - everyone thinks they are an expert on livery yards

It all starts with the leg - the hand contains what the leg provides. Your horse needs to be going forward, working over his back from behind in order to work in a correct outline. From reading previous posts it sounds as if he is not strong enough to give you what you're looking for. Start by doing work to strengthen his topline such as hillwork and cavaletti, and focus on straightness and rhythm in the school - if you do this the outline will follow.

Agree with above ^^^ However I would be getting the basic checks done - Chiropractor, Dentist and Saddler checks - baby horses change shape so fast as they build muscle that tack that fitted one week doesn't fit the next.

 

[JillA]

Aa above, an outline doesn't come from the front. it comes from engagement of his hinds - he can do it in walk because his walk is relatively balanced, which is easy and normal for a young horse. Trot though is more forward and tends to throw them onto the forehand, so he needs to balance that with a higher and more extended head and neck, which in turn is causing his back to hollow. The only kind of "outline" he can do like that is to concertina his head and neck, but it is false and doesn't lead to better work - you often see it in photos of ads for horses for sale.
Work on getting his balance further back through getting him to step under with his hinds, through transitions, circles, serpentines and shoulder in. If his jaw is relaxed (which you are risking him bracing if you are having a tug of war) he will soften, drop his head and raise his neck as his balance shifts. If he is constantly bracing his jaw, soften it by flexing to either side at halt, then, with the better balance you will be on the way to the ideal lightness and balance (yes, and change your instructor! I can identify riders round here who have a certain instructor because their hands and shoulders are permanently in the brace position!)
And above all, give him time - gymnastic exercises don't work over night

 

[horsimous]

The horse may find it hard as perhaps they are lacking the correct muscle and balance. I always found the simple way of creating the muscle, balance and a relaxed mouth on a horse was to develop it first without the rider by lunging and long reining for a few months.

 

[Red-1]

Once a horse has had a "pulling battle" there is some work to be done before he will be able to release.

I would start from the floor, picking up one rein to the side and waiting until the horse follows the contact to the side. Once the horse will follow the lead with a light contact and a soft feel then pick up both reins behind the bit, and take a contact, with a sensitive hand. As soon as the horse makes any kind of try to experiment with the feel then release. Usually this will start with him chewing.

If you continue then he will learn to soften to both reins simultaneously.

Then ridden, at halt, again use one rein to the side to teach the horse to follow the feel, without tension. Once he is soft to either side then pick up both and feel for any movement, and drop (and I mean drop) the contact as soon as he moves.

Then at walk, starting with a side feel, then both, but still dropping. Then hold the contact for three strides and drop. Then hold the contact for 5 strides then drop. BUT not doing each next step until you can really just pick up the contact and the horse knows the answer is to relax the jaw and soften.

Only once this is all embedded in walk would I trot.

If it has been a pulling battle you have caused the horse some discomfort, so he has hardened to the feel to protect himself. He has to re-learn that the way to answer the feel is to relax.

I don't know what you have been taught? TBH, if you have been having pulling battles with your horse it will be hard to soften him by a written piece, it would be better to get a trainer who can help you. As soon as they want you to pull the horse's head in then I would quit that trainer.

 

[Maesfen]

Echo all the above and get him out hacking, making him stride on and work but leave his head alone as that is his balancing pole; let him find his own level without interruption from you. As he gets stronger muscle wise, then he will be able to work through his back and learn to carry himself well.

There's also the matter of conformation; often overlooked in the quest for an outline. If the horse has a weak, badly set on head, no amount of pulling in will make an outline look pleasing and it will be uncomfortable for the horse; that could be one reason why he fights you but a decent instructor should have taken that into consideration right from the start - and strapping shut a mouth is not the way to go for any horse, it is fighting you for a reason.
You must work with the skeleton of the horse you have; don't try to change it but it can all be improved by working from behind and strengthening up - and sorry, an arena is not the place to do that without mind numbing boredom for the horse which will take an awful long time to get the results you seem to be asking for.

 

[AdorableAlice]

Is this the 6 year old that you cannot get to do flying changes, as per your question on 8th March. If it is I think you need to address the scales of training and get some help with an instructor who can train you and the horse in a logical and progressive manner.

 

[Bunnymare]

All the above...

I've been with my instructor a year now. Over the last 9 months we've been working on a long, stretchy outline to improve muscle and balance as my girl had an unlevel pelvis and was weak behind (all sorted and has improved vastly). In this time we've worked on poles, circles, serpentines, small grids and general bending/ flexing in all paces. It's only just recently we've started asking for a more 'grown up' outline from her where she takes more weight and responsibility on to her hind quarters. I know if I pull her nose in I'll not get anywhere but if I engage behind (instructor says think of a horse as rear wheel drive) with circles and other exercises the softness comes and the front end lightens.

We did our first dressage test recently and got 7% more than the same test ridden 6 months ago and came away 4th, super happy with our progress but still a lot more work to do...

 

[FlyingCircus]

Is this the 6 year old that you cannot get to do flying changes, as per your question on 8th March. If it is I think you need to address the scales of training and get some help with an instructor who can train you and the horse in a logical and progressive manner.

This. So much this.
You post every week with a question about your young horse, showing you really need some help.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I agree with all of the above and would go further and suggest that you have some lessons with a really good instructor on a true schoolmaster which will teach you to ask for exactly what you want the horse to do.

 

[Bernster]

I agree with all the above. I have found it harder than I expected to really learn to ride a horse in an outline, and I haven't cracked it yet despite various lessons/clinics with some great instructors and reading around on the topic. Although that might just be me being crap at riding!

If you are both learning it together, it won't be an easy fix. Id think about having someone experienced train your horse and teach you, as well as seeing if you could get lessons on a school master. And def not someone from the 'kick and pull, twiddle your fingers' school of training, although there are lots of them around sadly. Look at classical dressage, Sylvia loch, Mary Wanless or heather moffett - some really interesting stuff in there although no substitute for someone helping you out in person.

 

[Red-1]

Is this the 6 year old that you cannot get to do flying changes, as per your question on 8th March. If it is I think you need to address the scales of training and get some help with an instructor who can train you and the horse in a logical and progressive manner.

What? Missed that. OP, definitely get some different help than you are using now, or if the trainer is good, then take their advice.

 

[YorksG]

I am a firm believer of the don't run before you can walk school of training If the trot isn't balanced and soft, don't try anything fancy in faster paces, in fact work on the walk until the musculature is built in the way that you need. Also agree with hacking, rather than slogging round a school, marching on in walk up and down hills works a treat to build up the back end. Transitions within the pace and a lot of halt, will help to get a horse with his back legs under him/her.