Struggling with Navicular

Arniebear

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Brief intro... Horse went intermittently lame March/April 2019 finally diagnosed Navicular May/June2019 via x-rays and MRI. Had Tildren, coffin joint and navicular bursa injected remained in rolled shoes but could only get him sound for 4/5 weeks at a time. Sept 2019 went against vet and farrier advice and went barefoot after lots of research on here. Sound within 2 weeks, didnt do much with him in 2020 due to covid but was ridden 6 x a week, hacking miles, jumping, schooling, did a ODE, hunted etc. Everything was going amazingly so we prepped for the 2021 event season, double clear first 90 and flew round a BE100, week after had the odd lame stride (That moment where you question if he's lame but then the next strides he's not so you second guess yourself!) but nothing conclusive so put it down to hard ground gave him some time off and then took him SJ on a surface, flew round the 90 and 1m to place.... following day definitely lame when he trotted off in the field :( Been lame ever since (7 weeks now)

Farrier found bruising to the soles and slight imbalance to the RF (lame foot).... felt like an awful owner but he was absolutely flying round the BEs so I had no inkling he was struggling with the ground as not struggled before. Buted him for 2 weeks and farrier adjusted the imbalance and has put rolled shoes with wedges and pads on to help, i brought him back into walk work and he feels amazing in walk, really striding out and bouncing down the road honestly hasn't felt like this since before all the issues in 2019 so obviously more comfortable in the shoes but he's still just as lame in trot. Waiting for a referral into the vets to potentially remedicate/rex-ray (cant afford another MRI) see what they can come up with.

Any ideas on what else i can do to make him comfortable? He is presenting lameness wise exactly like he did in 2019 but the imbalance in the RF has been adjusted/taken into account - using a well known highly recommended remedial farrier (not the same farrier i used in 2019... he was sacked!) who only shod to help with the bruising, he's not against barefoot and neither am i, I'm just trying to make him as comfortable as possible atm.

Any thoughts? I miss riding my superstar :(
 

Birker2020

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Sorry to hear you are struggling maintaining your horses soundness.

Maybe ask your vet about Arthramid. It's meant to have a high sucess rate an can last for up to 2 years.

It sounds like it might be further deteriation of the coffin or navicular joint so maybe further xrays are needed to determine the extent of the arthritic changes.

You might have to set your sights a bit lower in terms of what you can do with your horse, i.e forget about eventing, possibly do arena eventing and maybe look at doing something less strenous like hacking and the odd fun ride instead.

Good luck, its heartbreaking and emotionally exhausting trying to keep them sound especially with a multitude of over compensatory issues.
 

Pinkvboots

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I would say it's the jumping on hard ground there is a limit you can do with navicular to keep them sound, putting shoes and pads on will probably work for a while and offer some comfort but long term will do more damage because your masking the problem.

I personally wouldn't jump a horse with navicular especially not on hard ground if I wanted the horse to stay sound long term, sorry if it's not what you want to hear but I think you have to be realistic with what you will be able to do.

I have an Arab that was diagnosed in 2016 he went barefoot was sound within 2 months of field rest and has remained so, I didn't jump really anyway but I don't go fast over hard ground and am generally careful with him his 16 now and is still capable of doing most things.
 

holeymoley

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I'm another thinking you've perhaps over done it a bit. I wouldn't jump or do anything on hard ground with something with navicular, certainly not hunting or eventing, that's likely to cause it to flare up. As others have said, new xrays to see where you're at. If your farrier is amazing and he's sound then by all means stay with the shoeing but otherwise your horse has corrected himself before without shoes, maybe go down that route again and then think of a quieter ridden life.
 

Littlebear

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At the point you are at, it will need some patience and potentially a decision whether you follow shoeing to xrays or going down the barefoot route, either one will take some time to adjust to and you may need to adjust your riding expectations quite considerably I am sorry to say. Always awful when you have a great horse and something like this happens.
I went through all of this with a horse that was bought to show jump, that horse ended up being a happy hacker and later on did fairly well at lower end BD. But we always had the handbrake on a little and i ended up with a second horse i could do more with.
 

Arniebear

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I'm aware it's most probably the hard ground that's caused this issue but he is a competition horse so i need to know if he is still capable of his job or if his job structure needs readjusting and whether or not that is something i want to do. He is by no means hammered on hard ground at all and he has a varied work life but yes we had a harder April than normal so i do suspect this was the issue. I'm not a happy hacking type so if this is all he can do then i may need to rethink about what we both want/need if he needs a quieter life then fair enough but considering his navicular was classed as mild and i was told he should still event, i wouldn't have known if he could or couldn't without trying it. There are plenty of horses out competing at higher levels with navicular I'm aware its a case of management of the issue and not fixing it completely. I'm not quite at the stage where i need to right him off completely yet i don't think, i believe there are other management options to try and of course just rest.

He was injected with Arthramid 2 years ago so there is a possibility of re-medicating with this but i need the vets to see him first.

I will of course wait and see what my vet suggests but his welfare is my top priority and if he needs to step down then he will as sad as that will be. I was just wandering if there was anything i may have missed to make him a little more comfortable whilst i'm waiting for the vets as the bute didnt seem to make much difference he is of course still happy to hoon about the field like a moron when it takes his fancy!
 

PurBee

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I agree with others the jumping with a navicular issue, seems like it’s aggravating it, and reconsidering his role is best.

The remedies out there are all masking the issue, despite giving a level of comfort for jumping. Adrenaline whilst jumping will cause the horse to fly and actually mask pain for him while he’s working a course. The days afterwards show the true effect jumping has on him/any horse.
The force the feet take when landing from a jump, considering their weight, is asking a lot from the navicular area and associated structures, so when they show weakness in a jumper, it’s best to reconsider their role before the horse is perpetually lame from it.

Sorry youre dealing with it as he sounds very talented. It need not be the end to him jumping altogether…but it sounds like rest from jumping and seeing how he does working flat for a while, then get his navicular re-assessed.
 

Arniebear

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What do his feet look like? Long toes and low/underrun heels are extremely difficult to correct with a regular (6 week) shoeing cycle.

They are neither long in the toes or underrun at the heels. I was using a different farrier to the one who shod him so when the remedial farrier took over (i changed as the remedial farrier has years more experience and i felt this issue needed a more experienced farrier) the only comment he had was he has a slight imbalance to the outside of the RF - which he has adjusted and if he was being really picky he would have his toes only slightly shorter but didnt feel my other farrier had done anything wrong as such, he was being trimmed 6 weekly as was doing a fair amount of roadwork which led to self trimming. Other than the imbalance the farrier thinks he has good feet, the shoes and pads went on to see if they would help alleviate the pain caused by the bruising, only been shod about 2/3 weeks. I'm happy with what current farrier is thinking and doing he has shod accordingly to what he can see from the outside, he has scrutinized the way he walks and how his feet land and trimmed accordingly obviously x rays will give more detail of what's going on inside so this will be discussed with the vet if they ever ring me back!!! He also has one of those gait analysis machines so next step is to put that on him to determine exactly how he is landing but he's held off doing that for now as he's aware its not cheap but if they vets are stumped too then we shall go down that route. I have no problem removing shoes again but currently he is walking better in the shoes
 

Arniebear

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I agree with others the jumping with a navicular issue, seems like it’s aggravating it, and reconsidering his role is best.

The remedies out there are all masking the issue, despite giving a level of comfort for jumping. Adrenaline whilst jumping will cause the horse to fly and actually mask pain for him while he’s working a course. The days afterwards show the true effect jumping has on him/any horse.
The force the feet take when landing from a jump, considering their weight, is asking a lot from the navicular area and associated structures, so when they show weakness in a jumper, it’s best to reconsider their role before the horse is perpetually lame from it.

Sorry youre dealing with it as he sounds very talented. It need not be the end to him jumping altogether…but it sounds like rest from jumping and seeing how he does working flat for a while, then get his navicular re-assessed.


Yeah I'm not disagreeing with the jumping at all although part of me wishes he wasn't so genuine and he threw in some stops so he could have given me a clue he was struggling. Yes he is talented and a very lovely horse but sadly its always the good ones that break.

Unfortunately atm he isnt sound enough to even work on the flat plus he bloody hates dressage!! But if he comes sound again, i have no intentions of taking him straight back out jumping so rest assure his welfare will come first and he will be introduced to things slowly to see what he can/cannot cope with. I've rehabbed enough injuries which is why i didnt rush him back out in 2020 and gave him plenty of time to readjust to barefeet and establish what we were capable of doing. He did 1 ODE, 1 hunter trail a couple of team chases and hunted a few times over a 6 month period coping extremely well with it all which is why i thought he would cope fine with eventing again this season
 

PurBee

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Yeah I'm not disagreeing with the jumping at all although part of me wishes he wasn't so genuine and he threw in some stops so he could have given me a clue he was struggling. Yes he is talented and a very lovely horse but sadly its always the good ones that break.

Unfortunately atm he isnt sound enough to even work on the flat plus he bloody hates dressage!! But if he comes sound again, i have no intentions of taking him straight back out jumping so rest assure his welfare will come first and he will be introduced to things slowly to see what he can/cannot cope with. I've rehabbed enough injuries which is why i didnt rush him back out in 2020 and gave him plenty of time to readjust to barefeet and establish what we were capable of doing. He did 1 ODE, 1 hunter trail a couple of team chases and hunted a few times over a 6 month period coping extremely well with it all which is why i thought he would cope fine with eventing again this season

Youre obviously experienced enough to have approached it how you have…i think youve caught it in time, so that careful re-introduction to some jumping could be possible if the 6 month jumping he did sounds like he can manage it. So its a case of trying to figure out the amount of jumping/rest from it he needs to stay sound.

Unsure if your farrier does it, or whether theyre legal for eventing, but you can get composite plastic shoes , less concussive than metal shoes, and you then infill inside the shoe with a plastic/resin/rubber material that is applied with a mastic gun, then it dries quick to give a permanent sole/frog pad for comfort.
Vettec do the infill material tubes - there’s different types. Ive not used it before, but have read/watched vids of horses that do well with such a method of farriery, rather than having to boot and pad the horse. Its a more permanent solution, offers thickness to the bottom of the foot that is much more comfortable than the traditional shoeing concussive effect on the wall.
 

celeste-izzy

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Sounds like we have a very similar horse! I've not read all your posts, however are both your boys front legs even? You mention about how he walks/lands. Mine has navicular both fronts, worse on the right. Interestingly his right leg is different from the long pastern down - unless it was pointed out you'd never notice. His hoof lands outside first then twists round to the inside.
My farrier was reluctant to correct that at his age, it would be like opening a can of worms besides my boy used to enjoy taking shoes off twice a week! So when he became lame and we xrayed, the type of shoeing which may have helped him wasn't worth trying. Don't ask me why he pulled shoes off so much, he likes to cost me money!!
Ultimately for him I had his shoes removed and retired him, there were other factors leading to my decision but he has never stayed sound and is always worse after doing the wall of death in his field on hard ground. I've not had him xrayed since so I can't say how much its progressing, but when he is lame it's no more than a 4 out of 10, so still fairly mild. I do find however vetrofen really helps and is FEI legal. Its a bit like us taking ibuprofen. So he'll have 4/5 days of that as and when he needs it.
I wouldn't worry too much just yet about his career, when I worked as a groom I knew several GP horses competing internationally with navicular. Some times it takes time. It may just be a case of limiting fast work on hard ground unless your competing or attending clinics.
 
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It may well be that he just cannot cope woth the work you are asking him anymore. Navicular is a degenerative disease and jumping in particular and any work faster than a walk on roads/hard ground aggravates it.

I had my boy pts in February with Navicular but he had tears to both DDFT in the hoof with lesions forming and after coffin joints medicated and the navicular bursae and short bursts of soundness like yours we never did back to proper work and ge took a turb for the worst and so I had to do the kindest thing. Tbh I had hoped at the best to get him comfortable enough to hack but he was quite sharp and this didn't help him with the rehab at all.

Hopefully your boy isn't as bad as this, what did the previous mri show out of interest?
 

Goldenstar

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I would get him seen by a Acpat trained physio do it as soon as you can and see if he has subtle muscle asymmetry as well .
The question is why is the foot imbalance is occurring and that’s a complicated knot to unravel some times .
On the bruising I had horse we hunted without shoes one day a week fine but two and he got sore bruised soles it was just too much .
So he was Bf all summer and shod for the hunting .
you have to be able to let the horse do it’s job and sometimes that means shoes .
 

Arniebear

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Youre obviously experienced enough to have approached it how you have…i think youve caught it in time, so that careful re-introduction to some jumping could be possible if the 6 month jumping he did sounds like he can manage it. So its a case of trying to figure out the amount of jumping/rest from it he needs to stay sound.

Unsure if your farrier does it, or whether theyre legal for eventing, but you can get composite plastic shoes , less concussive than metal shoes, and you then infill inside the shoe with a plastic/resin/rubber material that is applied with a mastic gun, then it dries quick to give a permanent sole/frog pad for comfort.
Vettec do the infill material tubes - there’s different types. Ive not used it before, but have read/watched vids of horses that do well with such a method of farriery, rather than having to boot and pad the horse. Its a more permanent solution, offers thickness to the bottom of the foot that is much more comfortable than the traditional shoeing concussive effect on the wall.

I will ask about these shoes thanks. He's only 10 so in no rush to get him out again tomorrow although do feel somewhat lost atm as 7 weeks is a lengthy time to still be lame but i shall see what the vet comes up with
 

Arniebear

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Sounds like we have a very similar horse! I've not read all your posts, however are both your boys front legs even? You mention about how he walks/lands. Mine has navicular both fronts, worse on the right. Interestingly his right leg is different from the long pastern down - unless it was pointed out you'd never notice. His hoof lands outside first then twists round to the inside.
My farrier was reluctant to correct that at his age, it would be like opening a can of worms besides my boy used to enjoy taking shoes off twice a week! So when he became lame and we xrayed, the type of shoeing which may have helped him wasn't worth trying. Don't ask me why he pulled shoes off so much, he likes to cost me money!!
Ultimately for him I had his shoes removed and retired him, there were other factors leading to my decision but he has never stayed sound and is always worse after doing the wall of death in his field on hard ground. I've not had him xrayed since so I can't say how much its progressing, but when he is lame it's no more than a 4 out of 10, so still fairly mild. I do find however vetrofen really helps and is FEI legal. Its a bit like us taking ibuprofen. So he'll have 4/5 days of that as and when he needs it.
I wouldn't worry too much just yet about his career, when I worked as a groom I knew several GP horses competing internationally with navicular. Some times it takes time. It may just be a case of limiting fast work on hard ground unless your competing or attending clinics.

nope only lame in RF, only diagnosed with navic in RF. LF wasnt MRI'ed to be fair. interesting i will take a look at him from higher up but nothing major has been pointed out to me he did stand a bit under himself when he was 4 but chiro appointments sorted that out at the time. Yeah no way i'm writing him off just yet he's too talented and too nice to not try my hardest to help him
 

Arniebear

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It may well be that he just cannot cope woth the work you are asking him anymore. Navicular is a degenerative disease and jumping in particular and any work faster than a walk on roads/hard ground aggravates it.

I had my boy pts in February with Navicular but he had tears to both DDFT in the hoof with lesions forming and after coffin joints medicated and the navicular bursae and short bursts of soundness like yours we never did back to proper work and ge took a turb for the worst and so I had to do the kindest thing. Tbh I had hoped at the best to get him comfortable enough to hack but he was quite sharp and this didn't help him with the rehab at all.

Hopefully your boy isn't as bad as this, what did the previous mri show out of interest?


So i was massively unimpressed with the vets in 2019 (rossdales but specifically the vet who saw him) she never sat me down and explained the results just said he has navicular. From what i could gather from the results he didnt have any holes or tears to ddft or collateral ligaments so no significant soft tissue injury as such - she confirmed this to me. Said keep him in walk work and when he remained lame she said nothing else can be done - which i didnt accept and that's why i chose to go barefoot with him instead. she told me if i went barefoot he would get worse whereas now i can keep him shod and retire him... he was 8! and i wouldn't retire a horse shod anyway but that's another story!

MRI read:
chronic remodelling of the navic bone and supporting ligaments and ddft. soft tissue adhesions within the navic bursa. early degenerative changes to the flexor fibocartilage has been detected - these findings can cause low grade lameness in some horses.
bilateral insertional desmopathy of the collateral ligaments is also a feature

He's a good hack so wouldn't object to hacking life i don't think, its not my sort of thing though so if that's the case i'd probably find a sharer or something - he wont be sold though - I've already got a field ornament so if needs be he can join him and be a lawnmower... apparently I'm good at collecting broken horses!
 

Arniebear

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What damage did the MRI show?

MRI read:
chronic remodelling of the navic bone and supporting ligaments and ddft. soft tissue adhesions within the navic bursa. early degenerative changes to the flexor fibocartilage has been detected - these findings can cause low grade lameness in some horses.
bilateral insertional desmopathy of the collateral ligaments is also a feature
 

Arniebear

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I would get him seen by a Acpat trained physio do it as soon as you can and see if he has subtle muscle asymmetry as well .
The question is why is the foot imbalance is occurring and that’s a complicated knot to unravel some times .
On the bruising I had horse we hunted without shoes one day a week fine but two and he got sore bruised soles it was just too much .
So he was Bf all summer and shod for the hunting .
you have to be able to let the horse do it’s job and sometimes that means shoes .

Yeah the idea of shoeing for part of the season and then shoes off again is an option. He seen regularly but is due again so i'll get something booked in
 

ycbm

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it is sometimes called a syndrome and sometimes a disease, and yes it is degenerative. I have even just been to check as was doubting myself but I am correct.

I'm really not sure this this is true, if the reason for the original damage is removed.

The stufff I've seen saying that it's degenerative is from studies of horses treated conventionally with shoes and drugs. I may be out of date and would be happy to see more current peer reviewed research that navicular syndrome îs degenerative.
.
 
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Perhaps yes, but I think you have to question quality of life as to what course of action you are prepared to take and each case is so different.
 

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it is sometimes called a syndrome and sometimes a disease, and yes it is degenerative. I have even just been to check as was doubting myself but I am correct.

Navicular is such an open ended diagnosis, changes on xrays have barely any correlation with actual lameness symptoms, bone can be remodelled in both directions, so bone loss, with better hoof function and biomechanics, can be reversed. Those with the success in rehabbing from it certainly don't see it as necessarily degenerative.
 

Annagain

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My understanding is that navicular disease is specifically related to the navicular bone while navicular syndrome is a term used for any pain in the heel area. The former is usually degenerative the latter isn't necessarily.

My 25 + year old is retired with navicular disease / coffin joint arthritis. He was 10 when he was first diagnosed and kept going until 24 but he did very little jumping at all after the diagnosis. I was told by the vet that he could jump again but it would shorten his career (and probably life) so we stuck to hacking, a bit of dressage and fun rides. We popped the odd log now and again when the ground was right and a suitable something to pop over appeared in front of us but he never jumped a course of any sort again.

I kept him shod with wedges simply because I was willing to try both approaches and it seemed easier to keep the shoes on then try barefoot if that didn't work than go through all the barefoot transition only to put shoes back on later. The wedges and change of workload kept him comfortable so I never felt the need to go barefoot.

The way you describe your horse, sound at the time of jumping but lame the next day was exactly my experience. I'm sad to say you might need to re-think his competitive future or at the very least be very careful about the sort of ground you run him on. I imagine preparing him carefully for months only to have to withdraw due to the ground could be very frustrating and that would have me wondering whether it was worth all the effort, especially knowing he could be in pain. The fact he was good for 2020, when you couldn't compete, shows he could still be useful and happy to someone who can provide the quieter life he needs - as my boy was (still happy, just not so useful now!)
 

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Although a controversial figure I think there's a lot in his (convoluted) teachings this could be interesting https://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/navicular_webinar.html

My understanding is that navicular disease is specifically related to the navicular bone while navicular syndrome is a term used for any pain in the heel area. The former is usually degenerative the latter isn't necessarily.

This is the orthodoxy on the subject, but is no longer universally accepted:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2013/07/surprise-surprisenot-really.html
 

Birker2020

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It may well be that he just cannot cope woth the work you are asking him anymore. Navicular is a degenerative disease and jumping in particular and any work faster than a walk on roads/hard ground aggravates it.

I had my boy pts in February with Navicular but he had tears to both DDFT in the hoof with lesions forming and after coffin joints medicated and the navicular bursae and short bursts of soundness like yours we never did back to proper work and ge took a turb for the worst and so I had to do the kindest thing. Tbh I had hoped at the best to get him comfortable enough to hack but he was quite sharp and this didn't help him with the rehab at all.

Hopefully your boy isn't as bad as this, what did the previous mri show out of interest?
Mine sounded just like yours too. Sorry for your loss
 
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