Struggling with the terms of loaning

[Ellietotz]

I have a horse on full loan which has been a few months now. She stays on the original livery yard along with the owners other horses so it's one joint payment. In the signed agreement the owner had put in that it's permanent and will not take the horse back at any stage unless something major happened of course. (I know it doesn't actually work like this but hey ho.)
I don't get charged for livery no matter how much I insist in contributing my share, I do buy feed etc and bedding which we share between my one and her 5 so I do try to make up for it somehow.
What I struggle with though is, I still feel like I'm borrowing the horse and paying a lot of money in vet bills as of a recent cut which got infected for someone else's horse and the more I bond with her, the more stressed this is all making me because it's niggling away constantly that she's not mine. Just little things like having her in my name with the vet and having her passport too.
Plus I also feel like the owner is too involved sometimes and I don't know if it's me just being silly but it really bugs me when she says she is thinking about getting a vet out to check why she is so angry when in season which isn't anything new, rather than just suggesting it as surely that should be up to me as I would have to pay?? And if I end up with some spare time or finish work early and want to ride but it turns out, my horse has been fed because the others were and it wouldn't have been fair leaving her out.
I just don't know if I'm being silly or if there's something I can do?
What's everyone's thoughts? I can move the horse but I don't want to make things weird by moving it down the road for example for no reason!

 

[milliepops]

I think the problem stems from you not having to pay the livery bill tbh. It sounds like there is no formal break between the owner looking after her and the horse becoming your responsibility. Do you have a loan agreement or was it done on an informal basis?

 

[Ellietotz]

I think the problem stems from you not having to pay the livery bill tbh. It sounds like there is no formal break between the owner looking after her and the horse becoming your responsibility. Do you have a loan agreement or was it done on an informal basis?

We have a signed written agreement. She won't let me pay for hay or anything, I insist but get told I don't have to. I pay for her shoes, teeth, wormer, everything. I don't like feeling like I'm sharing. The whole point of wanting the loan agreement was to have sole responsibility but still find that the owner is doing stuff with the horse. I will get a message like 'got her out for a brush and feed today', which nice as it is, why?
I am trying to separate our stuff from the main things in the tack room but not sure it's doing anything really. I feel uncomfortable even saying she's mine in front of the owner. The owner doesn't actually want her either which is why she is on loan to me. The reason she is permanent is so that she doesn't get sold on but I would rather buy her and have an agreement to give back if I ever needed to sell.

 

[Ellietotz]

Also struggling a lot with jealousy when I get told she has been following the owner around in the field..

 

[PorkChop]

Difficult situation, it would slightly annoy me too, even though I know that the owner thinks they are just being nice.

You have, of course, options. However you have to be prepared that the owner might get upset and stop the agreement.

Ultimately, loaning is borrowing.

Are you able or do you actually want to buy the horse? Or do you still really only want a loan?

 

[Ellietotz]

Difficult situation, it would slightly annoy me too, even though I know that the owner thinks they are just being nice.

You have, of course, options. However you have to be prepared that the owner might get upset and stop the agreement.

Ultimately, loaning is borrowing.

Are you able or do you actually want to buy the horse? Or do you still really only want a loan?

I want to buy her. I have recently asked and she said she would have a think.

 

[PorkChop]

I want to buy her. I have recently asked and she said she would have a think.

Well thats promising! Might be a win, win situation

 

[Ellietotz]

Well thats promising! Might be a win, win situation

If she says yes and I do buy her and keep her at the same place though, what would change? What's to show that she's owned? I've never actually bought a horse before!

 

[PorkChop]

If she says yes and I do buy her and keep her at the same place though, what would change? What's to show that she's owned? I've never actually bought a horse before!

You should get a sale receipt, and the owner would sign the passport to say that she/he has sold the horse, which you would then change into your ownership.

I personally wouldn't keep the horse at the same place if you did buy!

 

[SpringArising]

Also struggling a lot with jealousy when I get told she has been following the owner around in the field..

How old are you?

 

[Ellietotz]

How old are you?

Mid-twenties... why? Jealousy doesn't always grow out with age...

 

[Ellietotz]

You should get a sale receipt, and the owner would sign the passport to say that she/he has sold the horse, which you would then change into your ownership.

I personally wouldn't keep the horse at the same place if you did buy!

Would make things awkward though I think :/ is the sale receipt something the owner writes up?

 

[SpringArising]

Mid-twenties... why? Jealousy doesn't always grow out with age...

Because I find the concept of an adult being jealous that an animal is showing affection to someone else very odd.

 

[Ellietotz]

Because I find the concept of an adult being jealous that an animal is showing affection to someone else very odd.

I'm sure many people would disagree but besides the point. I'm looking for help on what to do or how to be/think, not critics. Thank you

 

[paddi22]

i've loaned my horse out and i'b be a bit freaked if the loaner was getting upset because the owner was following me around the field, I think it's a bit of a strange reaction? It sounds like loaning mightn't suit you and you'd be better off getting your own. Hope you can buy the horse off the owner and sort the issue

 

[Ellietotz]

i've loaned my horse out and i'b be a bit freaked if the loaner was getting upset because the owner was following me around the field, I think it's a bit of a strange reaction? It sounds like loaning mightn't suit you and you'd be better off getting your own. Hope you can buy the horse off the owner and sort the issue

I think this was taken in a much worse way than intended. I guess I just want the owner to be less involved with the other things I mentioned.
The owner has come back to me and doesn't want to sell. Not sure what difference it makes though if she has already put in writing to me that it's permanent and won't request for her to be returned. She said the reason was because she's had her her whole life but in the loan agreement, it says I can move yards if I ever moved away etc. so would all be the same. I don't know, just confuses me!

 

[SusieT]

I think you need to enjoy the horse, or find another set up without an owner on site.

 

[PeachesD113]

Ellietotz I feel like I can completely sympathise with you. I 'loan' my horse (no formal agreement and started as a share but I pay all bills including livery) but he isn't mine. Recently asked to buy him but have heard nothing back. Everything you have said has struck a cord (including the jealousy!) can't offer any advice but wanted you to know you're not alone!

 

[Amye]

It sounds like you would prefer to own your own horse rather than loan. As has been said, loaning is still borrowing and you still don't own the horse.

I can sympathise though as I know a full loan normally means the owner takes a step back and the responsibility of the horse falls on the loaner.

Is there any set date for a renewal of your loan agreement or a lookover? If so, you could sit down with her and discuss any changes you want to make in the agreement (paying livery, not fed before you want to ride etc, if they call the vet without informing you they pay for the treatment). Obviously that will need to be in a tactful why to not upset the owner.

The other options are to try and get the owner to sell to you then you can just turn around and say 'please stop doing this with my horse' or you could look for another loan/buy a horse yourself.

Or accept what it is and enjoy the horse.

Difficult situation and I hope you can work it out with the owner. Are they generally a reasonable person or might they get upset if you voice your opinions?

I can understand the jealousy, but remember this horse is on loan to you, she's not yours and may have been with the owner longer than she's known you. Also there are many reasons a horse might follow someone - food, the person is paying attention to the other horses and they want to see what's going on etc.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I've been both a loaner and a loanee, and so may I offer my thoughts. Not that my thoughts are either "right" or "wrong", but here they are, for what they're worth.

There seems to be a lot of emotional baggage in this whole set-up IMO. Owner is always on the yard and is appearing precious about "their" horse; also there seems to be way too much grey area i.e. who is responsible for getting the vet out in the first place, and who pays!! That is bound to be causing considerable fogginess and confusion.

Then there is the issue of perhaps the owner feeling a trifle jealous at the obvious rapport that is developing between the OP as loanee, and the horse. If OP as loanee had the horse at a different yard, then this wouldn't (obviously) be a problem as OP would then be free to get on with it free from interference and jealousy/over-preciousness issues.

There is an option for OP to continue as things are: result is likely to be increased tension and frustration, especially where the responsibilities for the horse don't seem to be clear-cut i.e. paying livery bills and vets bills. Personally if I was OP, and wanted to consider "loaning" this horse, I would sit down with the owner and say let's formulate a new loan agreement wherein EVERYTHING is clear cut. Strictly speaking it is a full loan, I would therefore expect the loanee (i.e. OP) to pay for everything: livery/feed/shoeing, vets fees, the whole lot. The owner I would expect to pay for the insurance and keep that in her own name, but everything else in a full loan agreement IME falls to the loanee. Think OP you need to get this clarified and a proper loan agreement drawn up forthwith - the BHS website has a very good one which you can adapt if needs be.

Assuming that the owner and yourself draw up a new loan agreement, then frankly the owner at that stage must wind her neck in and stop interfering! As the loanee, you could request that the horse be kept elsewhere, and she has the right to veto that, but I do think it would be beneficial for the horse to be away from the constant interference of the owner if this loan is to work out, frankly!

Failing the agreeing and signing of a loan agreement, personally if I was OP I would be thinking very strongly about whether she wishes this difficult situation to continue. I would not recommend that it is allowed to go on like it is, coz I can foresee a full-scale bust-up in the not too distant future if things are not arranged in a more satisfactory fashion. There are other horses which may come up on loan, without all this hassle, and it may be an option to look elsewhere for either another loan horse or indeed for OP to buy her own horse which she can do with what she likes!

Of course, if OP is able to buy this particular horse, that would be an extremely good result for all concerned! And if that is a possibility, then OP may feel it inadvisable to rock the boat too much in the current situation as she may not wish to upset the owner ........

But if you DO manage to buy this horse OP, then for pity's sake move it to a different yard, well away from the over-precious owner!!

Good luck, whatever you decide. Not an easy decision, but TBH I don't think the status quo is a good place to be, something has got to change coz otherwise I can foresee conflict homing into view on the horizon. I think sitting down and working out a loan agreement which is agreeable to both parties might be the most important move in the first instance, it is important to get the basics right.

 

[meleeka]

Have you tried talking to the owner? She probably isn't even aware that she's stepping on your toes and thinks she's being kind by taking an Interest.

 

[Ellietotz]

Ellietotz I feel like I can completely sympathise with you. I 'loan' my horse (no formal agreement and started as a share but I pay all bills including livery) but he isn't mine. Recently asked to buy him but have heard nothing back. Everything you have said has struck a cord (including the jealousy!) can't offer any advice but wanted you to know you're not alone!

Thank you!! I'm glad I'm not the only one!

 

[Ellietotz]

It sounds like you would prefer to own your own horse rather than loan. As has been said, loaning is still borrowing and you still don't own the horse.

I can sympathise though as I know a full loan normally means the owner takes a step back and the responsibility of the horse falls on the loaner.

Is there any set date for a renewal of your loan agreement or a lookover? If so, you could sit down with her and discuss any changes you want to make in the agreement (paying livery, not fed before you want to ride etc, if they call the vet without informing you they pay for the treatment). Obviously that will need to be in a tactful why to not upset the owner.

The other options are to try and get the owner to sell to you then you can just turn around and say 'please stop doing this with my horse' or you could look for another loan/buy a horse yourself.

Or accept what it is and enjoy the horse.

Difficult situation and I hope you can work it out with the owner. Are they generally a reasonable person or might they get upset if you voice your opinions?

I can understand the jealousy, but remember this horse is on loan to you, she's not yours and may have been with the owner longer than she's known you. Also there are many reasons a horse might follow someone - food, the person is paying attention to the other horses and they want to see what's going on etc.

The owner is reasonable but I get worried about rocking the boat and ruining everything. The loan agreement doesn't end at any stage, it's just a permanent loan for however long I want it as the owner has no use for the horse but doesn't want to not have some kind of hold on it, if that makes sense. The owner has already said if she decides to call the vet out, she won't expect me to pay but I would expect me to pay as she's my responsibility. It's all so confusing. Might just agree to go halves or something.
I have spoken to the owner and she said she sees the horse as mine so I guess that's enough reassurance for me.

 

[Amye]

The owner is reasonable but I get worried about rocking the boat and ruining everything. The loan agreement doesn't end at any stage, it's just a permanent loan for however long I want it as the owner has no use for the horse but doesn't want to not have some kind of hold on it, if that makes sense. The owner has already said if she decides to call the vet out, she won't expect me to pay but I would expect me to pay as she's my responsibility. It's all so confusing. Might just agree to go halves or something.
I have spoken to the owner and she said she sees the horse as mine so I guess that's enough reassurance for me.

If the owner is reasonable maybe you could just ask if you could meet up and outline exactly who's responsibility is who's in regards to the horse in a new/renewed agreement? Just say you're a bit confused whether you should be paying livery/vets etc. Then you can try and iron out some stuff. You could also just mention the whole feeding before you ride thing and say that sometimes you ride later on so need the horse to not be fed.

I understand about not wanting to rock the boat. It's good she sees the horse as yours though, just need to work on her interfering!

 

[Ellietotz]

I've been both a loaner and a loanee, and so may I offer my thoughts. Not that my thoughts are either "right" or "wrong", but here they are, for what they're worth.

There seems to be a lot of emotional baggage in this whole set-up IMO. Owner is always on the yard and is appearing precious about "their" horse; also there seems to be way too much grey area i.e. who is responsible for getting the vet out in the first place, and who pays!! That is bound to be causing considerable fogginess and confusion.

Then there is the issue of perhaps the owner feeling a trifle jealous at the obvious rapport that is developing between the OP as loanee, and the horse. If OP as loanee had the horse at a different yard, then this wouldn't (obviously) be a problem as OP would then be free to get on with it free from interference and jealousy/over-preciousness issues.

There is an option for OP to continue as things are: result is likely to be increased tension and frustration, especially where the responsibilities for the horse don't seem to be clear-cut i.e. paying livery bills and vets bills. Personally if I was OP, and wanted to consider "loaning" this horse, I would sit down with the owner and say let's formulate a new loan agreement wherein EVERYTHING is clear cut. Strictly speaking it is a full loan, I would therefore expect the loanee (i.e. OP) to pay for everything: livery/feed/shoeing, vets fees, the whole lot. The owner I would expect to pay for the insurance and keep that in her own name, but everything else in a full loan agreement IME falls to the loanee. Think OP you need to get this clarified and a proper loan agreement drawn up forthwith - the BHS website has a very good one which you can adapt if needs be.

Assuming that the owner and yourself draw up a new loan agreement, then frankly the owner at that stage must wind her neck in and stop interfering! As the loanee, you could request that the horse be kept elsewhere, and she has the right to veto that, but I do think it would be beneficial for the horse to be away from the constant interference of the owner if this loan is to work out, frankly!

Failing the agreeing and signing of a loan agreement, personally if I was OP I would be thinking very strongly about whether she wishes this difficult situation to continue. I would not recommend that it is allowed to go on like it is, coz I can foresee a full-scale bust-up in the not too distant future if things are not arranged in a more satisfactory fashion. There are other horses which may come up on loan, without all this hassle, and it may be an option to look elsewhere for either another loan horse or indeed for OP to buy her own horse which she can do with what she likes!

Of course, if OP is able to buy this particular horse, that would be an extremely good result for all concerned! And if that is a possibility, then OP may feel it inadvisable to rock the boat too much in the current situation as she may not wish to upset the owner ........

But if you DO manage to buy this horse OP, then for pity's sake move it to a different yard, well away from the over-precious owner!!

Good luck, whatever you decide. Not an easy decision, but TBH I don't think the status quo is a good place to be, something has got to change coz otherwise I can foresee conflict homing into view on the horizon. I think sitting down and working out a loan agreement which is agreeable to both parties might be the most important move in the first instance, it is important to get the basics right.

The owner doesn't want responsibility of the horse anymore as they have no use for it and has others to focus on. Was meant to be for pony club but ended up not being suitable for a child so has been a field ornament for a long time. Only reason the owner suggested the vet is because she has been overly mare-ish lately due to a new horse next door and tried kicking out so was safety concerns I think really, although the owner said if the horse ever hurts someone, it will get pts and without swearing, I can't describe the anger that makes me feel. I did bring that up with them and they said they know they say it but don't really mean it, but still, not the point. The mare-ishness doesn't bother me so much as I am used to her being grumpy and wouldn't have minded so much if the vet was just a suggestion rather than a decided plan without me agreeing. The agreement is that I pay for all vet bills and calling them out too so that's clear for both parties which is why it bugged me in the first place because it's my job to do that.
I don't think the owner is jealous, would be very odd if they were as they haven't been interested in the horse for years after it bucked from excitement and ended up being 'no good' for them. Although, nothing actually wrong with her, she just knew she could get away with it.
We do have a proper written agreement, I don't pay for livery or hay as the owner says it doesn't matter. I do buy feed and bedding for everyone to share to make up for it though plus we have set days where I will do all of their horses as well as mine, mucking out, feed, hay, water etc. The insurance for her is in my name, I'm responsible for everything to do with the vet, vaccs, worming, shoeing, teeth etc. I pay for absolutely everything if it were my own apart from the livery. I bought all the tack and rugs etc, paid for physio and everything. I'm not sure how the owner would feel if I told them that they cant get her out when they get all of them out for a brush and a feed as it wouldn't be fair to leave her in the field on her own. I know it sounds harsh and in a way, as much as it bugs me, I don't want her being left out if they're all getting something to eat. If the owner got her out and started lunging or something(I know they wouldn't ride her, not confident enough anymore), I would be really p***ed! But mostly, they just leave her to it, only get her out if the others are coming out and only feed if the others are. I think it just really got on my nerves when the vet 'suggestion' happened and I had really just had enough.
I have spoken to the owner now though, used the excuse that it's just me being silly so that it didn't cause conflict so hopefully they will eventually get the point and back off a bit.
Thank you for the advice!

 

[Ellietotz]

Have you tried talking to the owner? She probably isn't even aware that she's stepping on your toes and thinks she's being kind by taking an Interest.

This could be the case. I have spoken to them and in a way, I also think I am just being picky as well probably!

 

[Ellietotz]

If the owner is reasonable maybe you could just ask if you could meet up and outline exactly who's responsibility is who's in regards to the horse in a new/renewed agreement? Just say you're a bit confused whether you should be paying livery/vets etc. Then you can try and iron out some stuff. You could also just mention the whole feeding before you ride thing and say that sometimes you ride later on so need the horse to not be fed.

I understand about not wanting to rock the boat. It's good she sees the horse as yours though, just need to work on her interfering!

We have a proper loan agreement which states everything regarding vets etc. I am responsible for insurance, vets, teeth, worming, shoes etc so only thing I do pay is livery but I have days where I will do all of the owner horses as well as buying feed etc to share. I don't think the owner will not feed her when the others are being fed annoyingly. I could just ask to only give her a tiny amount rather than a big one. Thank you for the advice.