Stubborn 4 year old

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Jade-and-patch

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I have a four year old gelding who I've owned for just over three weeks now. He seems to have settled at his new yard, but is unbroken and his lunging is starting to improve. I don't have any problems catching him in the field and he will always come over. However once he is caught, he often refuses to move or walk on from his field...it can take me ages!! This seems to be getting worse not better as he grows in confidence. I can tell by his demina that it is not because he is scared but because he is being stubborn. The only thing that seems to work is if he is following his field companion or if somebody is waving their arms behind him. I'm not one to whip a stubborn horse as I feel it can often be anti productive, however I have tried tapping him with the lead rope behind my shoulder when leading but this only makes him back up or even try a little rear. I can't always rely on having another horse of person there, does anyone have any ways to get arose be this? Remember he is young! Thanks in advance.
 
He needs to be taught how to lead (obviously), this doesn't happen automatically and should be done when the horse is a foal. Best done in the school or around the yard if it is enclosed, use a long schooling whip or lunge whip, stand at the horse's shoulder and tap the horse forward on the hip or croup, & don't pull on the leadrope. It is far, far better to have someone experienced (preferably professional) show you and the horse how to do this as the horse can react negatively until it understands what is required.
 
ditto above-work in school a few times an carry a long whip-then you can tap him without having to fling your arm back round behind you,IME this works a lot better than a flick with the rope.

if you get absolutely stuck in the mean time get him walking a small circle round you like lunging and gradually walk the circle to the gate.
 
Is he really being stubborn? Or is he trying to tell you that you are not yet his leader, he doesn't sound like he is growing in confidence at all - he sounds like he is losing confidence in you as the handler and he feels more confident staying in the field with his own kind.

That's perfectly natural for a young horse who has just moved to the unknown but you do need to nip it in the bud including a mindset change for yourself, the horse doesn't trust you yet and this needs to be improved.

The other two responses give great suggestions on dealing with the leading issues. I would also spend time doing various different groundwork sessions to improve your status!!
 
Sorry should've said that he knows how to be lead and I would usually know how to get a horse to move. He was fine being lead when he first arrived, it's just something he's started doing the past week through stubbornness. Any sort of touch from a long whip or anything, he will back away from it, probably even having a long whip in my hand he won't walk when he can see it. At the moment I have to keep bending him to the side so he is slightly unbalanced and consequently ha to move forwards
 
Wheels said:
Is he really being stubborn? Or is he trying to tell you that you are not yet his leader, he doesn't sound like he is growing in confidence at all - he sounds like he is losing confidence in you as the handler and he feels more confident staying in the field with his own kind.

That's perfectly natural for a young horse who has just moved to the unknown but you do need to nip it in the bud including a mindset change for yourself, the horse doesn't trust you yet and this needs to be improved.

The other two responses give great suggestions on dealing with the leading issues. I would also spend time doing various different groundwork sessions to improve your status!!
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How would you suggest that I gain this trust? I have my on ideas, but am open to the opinion of others. He is being stubborn, but yes it's because he feels that I am not his leader. I have tried some of the natural horsemanship sort of stuff to gain his trust when lunging etc, and this seems to work. I also try this in his field if he doesn't come over and it always works, however I can't find a way to use this when leading other than attempting join up
 
Jade-and-patch said:
Sorry should've said that he knows how to be lead and I would usually know how to get a horse to move. He was fine being lead when he first arrived, it's just something he's started doing the past week through stubbornness. Any sort of touch from a long whip or anything, he will back away from it, probably even having a long whip in my hand he won't walk when he can see it. At the moment I have to keep bending him to the side so he is slightly unbalanced and consequently ha to move forwards
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this is the first issue you have to resolve, the horse needs to understand that the whip is not frightening but at the same time respect that when it is used it means move forwards.

I would be starting by desensitising to the whip, there are many videos on YouTube of how to do desensitising work, unless he's had a very bad experience it shouldn't take long. Once this is done then move on to the exercise that Cortez has suggested. Light but fast taps behind the girth area until he moves forward and then immediately stop using the whip - pressure and release, timing needs to be good though so if this is not something you're used to then get some professional help.

Yes he might have been lead but it needs to be instilled and become second nature, then he shouldn't plant at all and if he does you should be able to move him quite easily.
 
You should definitely lunge him with a schooling whip more so he doesn't fear it but I would not "desensitize" full on or you will get a horse that does not respond to a whip at all and you'll end up having to attach a flag. (You should only desensitize a horse to tools once it understands what those tools mean/the signals - if you do it beforehand, it's counterproductive.)

You say the horse knows how to lead so I assume this is only an issue in this one particular spot? If that's the case, you need to treat it like a behavioural issue and not a training one (not that the two are not connected).

Someone else suggested lunging the horse around you. I would definitely go with that... But not to subtly lunge to your destination. I would use it more as a reprimand.

When you get your horse through the gate and it stops. Say walk on, then click, then gently tug on the rope and start walking. Make sure you are by his shoulder as you do this - don't face him as this can feel confrontational and will discourage the horse from following. If he then plants, smack a schooling whip on the ground behind him and make him move. Make him go around you a couple of times with lots of energy. Then ask him to stand. Once he has done so, ask him to move forward calmly (no whip) again - say 'walk on', click, then gentle tug, then start walking off. If he again plants and resists, repeat the quick lunging. This usually works after the second or third time... If he does start walking forward, keep going without making a fuss and continue looking the way you are going. When you reach your destination, reward him by letting him stand still, giving him a scratch etc.

When you get him lunging, TALK and CLICK. People forget to talk to their horses but the lightest aid is the voice. Get him to understand that a click means forward and when you ask him to walk on, say the words "walk on" then click, then give a gentle tug with the leadrope and start walking. Escalate the commands rather than doing just one thing. If he takes a step, pat and repeat - words, click, gentle tug, walk. Only when he actually plants should you start chasing him around you. You won't need to hit/tap/touch him with the whip at all.

The process of doing this will also help him gain confidence in you and respect for you. More groundwork in general will help you with that though. Lots of lunging, free lunging, long-lining, in-hand work - even trick training.
 
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I had a similar problem with my baby when he was learning to lead, his default position was to freeze and refuse to move. There is no point pulling because they are stronger and heaver. This was the first horse I had that used this technique, my others all bogged off. It is a matter of respect, I am not sure that stubborn is the right word as it suggests that an animal is thinking things through and working out how to really pee us off, of course they do not think like that. In the herd situation the horse in charge moves the other horses around, your horse could be unsure, a month is no time to settle really, you are just coming out of your honeymoon period, or he could be testing you and seeing what boundaries he can push. Before you do anything you need to solve the planting issue. How did I solve mine, why it was easy. I knew i did not have the experience in how to solve it. Having horses and being a horse owner for many years I was quite happy to admit I did not know it all. I contacted a Recommended Associate from the intelligent Horse place, you know the Kelly Marks lot. It took one session with her to equip me with the techniques to deal with this phase of my horses training. She taught me how to move my horses feet even after he had planted, sideways and get him moving, by moving him off balance. It only took one session and she did not even use the Dually halter or insist I but one, she just used his normal head collar. Please note that once my horse twigged that planting was not going to work he converted to trying to bowl through the handler. Having done the technique a number of times the RA was prepared for the change of technique and was able to deal with that and teach me how to keep him off balance. Once i was able to deal with my very clever little horses antics he quickly gave up the fight and now leads and ties perfectly.
 
My mare does exactly this too!!!! Always has coming in from the field if she isn't the last in and doesn't do it anywhere else. She is now 9 and I've had her since she was 4!!! I simply move/push her shoulders to get her feet moving and off we go again...... She has never shown any other "bad" behavior. In fact she is so good to do that I BE event her and don't have a friend or groom accompany us.

However I have gotten really strict with her lately making her really walk in instead or meandering and made sure her attention is on me and not her buddies left behind and she has been so much better. I use my arm and click my finger/thumb as I keep forgetting my schooling whip (she is on my right, schooling whip in left hand to encourage her).

She is very laid back and I even had to use a schooling whip in this way to teach her to trot up. I guess my main problem is she is on livery so 9 times out of 10 staff bring her in WITH the others so it's only when I get her in early to ride at weekends that this problem arises and only if the other 3 mares stay out.

Fingers crossed your gelding is like my mare and it won't escalate but do try the schooling whip on your outside to tap the 1/4s to encourage forwardness.

Good luck.
 
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