Stubborn 4yr old ISH

O

Olliecp77

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 August 2009
Messages
247
Visit site
Hey, thought I'd try comp riders for this one. I have a talented but stubborn 4 yr old ISH. He's a very large build 17hh dressage type. He had a longer than expected break after coming back from being broken last December due to the weather. I only really started riding him myself in March and a friend (stronger rider) was doing more for me. I have managed to ride him through most of his strops (plants and tries to pin me against the arena fence/wall). He starts off very willing and enjoys his work however this lasts maybe 15 mins before the head tossing and refusing contact starts - trying to get me to give in. I can go a few weeks making progress and his paces are fab then we have strops for a few days in a row. Normally getting off and lunging and getting back on does the trick. I always insist on ending on a good note with me in charge and him not getting away with bad behaviour. Today there was a major strop with him pulling the reins and trying to get his head down (I have a feeling the bucking phase of his 4 yr days is about to come!) and he planted refusing to go forward. I ended up getting someone to come into the arena and lead me forward then to chase him up a bit from behind. I've recently had a good strong rider ride him and he went fab for him and me, then he drove away and a mini strop started - he obviously can try me. I'll get the other rider to ride him a few times this week to straighten him out.
Any other ideas to over come the strops as its me that needs to ride him. He's had his teeth done and due them to be done again soon. I don't want to ruin him but need to progress him.
 
Sounds very obvious, but do you give him plenty of stretching breaks inbetween his good work? Sounds like he does 15 mins of good work, gets tired and achey doing this 'new' activity since he is only young, and then protests?

I know that even with my 9yo (ex racer, only been schooled in the last year) that if I don't give him regular stretch and relax breaks the quality of his work does deteriorate. He doesn't strop as it isn't in his nature, but he does need plenty of regular breaks to rest and relax before he can continue working in the same productive manner.
 
Sorry, but how much schooling are you doing with this horse?
Sounds like you are asking/ expecting a lot from a 4 yr old- maybe plenty of hacking would help not asking for a contact just getting him to walk forwards on a relaxed rein he doesn't sound like he is mentally or physically ready to take the demands expected of him
 
Let him have some fun hacking, with other horses, learning to go forward and ditch the schooling! My ISH was very backward at 4, he was growing so much that the physio told me to back his schooling right off and keep it v short with long rewards!

Cubbing helped strengthen him and make grow up!
 
If 15 mins is his toleration level - work for 15 mins. Then 17, then 20, then 25 (you get the picture).

He doesn't need constant school work - just consistent ridden work.

Hacking, cubbing, huntin. All great fun, and designed to get the young horse thinking forward.

He's young and big - and needs to be brought on slowly.
 
I presume you've had all the usual things checked? Four is a bad year for horses - they change shape a lot so often run into saddle and balance problems, they lose teeth (getting his teeth done is immaterial to this), they often start to look grown up so people start to have grown-up expectations of them, and, yes, they may be less tolerant - often with justification!

As above, you may have over cooked it. You only have to push too far a few times before even a nice horse starts to think, "Hmm, I worked harder, as I was asked, it hurt more and I couldn't do it . . .no thanks!" They then get quicker to say "no" because they see the train coming down the tracks. Yes, a stronger rider can overcome this - horses DO have to learn that being a riding horse is often not very pleasant, whatever people want to think - but often they are also more supportive and get results more quickly so actually DO less although they get more done.

Of course we can't see so we can't judge but generally, I do find one of the most common areas of trouble for young horses is their necks. People hang on a bit, trying to make the horse "make a shape" or whatever, and the muscles at the bottom of the neck/infront of the shoulder start to get tight and even spasm. The "rooting" sounds pretty indicative. When I'm trying to explain it to people I liken it to a charlie horse you get in your leg - when the leg is stretched it's bearable but if you bend your knee to contract the muscle it's not only agonizing but the body has reactions built in to stop you doing it and damaging the muscle. A cramp is not a disaterous problem and it's easily resloved (and it has to be, as it can lead to further issues) but it's friggin' painful!

The advice about letting him stretch regularly is spot on, but he also should be stretching to your contact when you have one. I suspect at least one of the reasons that hacking, hunting, jumping in general etc benefit horses (other than the obvious) is because they encourage riders not to hold the horse's head in any particular shape and to encourage them to stretch out and move in different ways. Plus, 15 minutes is a LONG time to be working solidly, even for a horse more advanced than yours.

I think it is quite possible for horses to thrive doing primarily school work (mixed with other things, of course, in the school and out) but it takes a bit more tact and planning.
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Sorry, but how much schooling are you doing with this horse?
Sounds like you are asking/ expecting a lot from a 4 yr old- maybe plenty of hacking would help not asking for a contact just getting him to walk forwards on a relaxed rein he doesn't sound like he is mentally or physically ready to take the demands expected of him
Click to expand...

Exactly this. He is far too young (for that breed) to be in the serious work you are asking, he won't mature until he's about 7 anyway so I'd back off; in fact I would turn him away completely for the winter to recharge his batteries and give him a chance to relax and grow at his own speed rather than being forced all the time. He'll come back far stronger physically and mentally for you.

Never ask a boy to do a man's work is a very good mantra for young horses.
 
Agree with everything everyone else has said - and would like to add my own experience. My last dressage horse was a big (17.3hh) reg ISH from warmblood lines. He was backed and turned away at rising 5 due to his size - he was far too gangly and weak as a younger 4 yr old. When he came back into work at 5.5, he was still very weak, but looked like a big strong upstanding sort of chap because he had such a big frame. He was the sweetest horse, and tried very hard to do what was asked of him - but simply couldn't sustain it for longer than about 10 minutes. I forgot all about working him in the school, and did loads of hacking and hillwork to build strength and fitness - making sure he worked correctly in a baby outline whilst we were out and about. By the time he was 6.5, he was fit and strong enough to start working him properly in the school. It really did take that long -these really big horses take a long time to grow into themselves and achieve a sufficient level of fitness to cope with schoolwork. Looking back on old photos, you can see how much his bone increased between 3-6, and had you photoshopped his head off, I wouldn't have said that his 5 and 6yr old selves were the same horse.
 
I have made the mistake of asking too much from a 17h 4 year old.
The responses on here are spot on,I think, and Tarrsteps description of the muscle spasm really makes you think!
I reached the point with mine where I was too scared to ride him,which was actually the best thing that could have happened. He got time off to grow and mature and when I was feeling brave again I restarted him using tiny steps within BOTH our comfort zones.
He is now 8 and only just showing maturity, but he is happy,willing and we trust each other. It might seem he is rather old to be still working on the basics,but I think he could well have been broken physically and mentally if I had continued pushing him in the early days.
I think our journey with horses is meant to teach us important lessons. I have had to learn patience,patience,patience!
 
For reference, even "average" horses are 7-8 before they are fully mature, all the joints closed etc. In fact the joints that close last - the ones in the spine - are arguably some of the most important! And evidence suggests big horses take longer. They certainly take longer to develop the muscle and other soft tissue strength to support their larger frame. And physics demonstrates that they are under more stress - surface area increases by x2 but volume increases by x3 so as a horse gets larger it bears relatively more weight on the surface area of its joints, feet etc. This is obviously simplified but again, useful to remember what you're dealing with.

This does not mean they can't or shouldn't work, even quite hard, before that point. Like all athletes their bodies need to be habituated to the demands and there are all sorts of studies showing "good stress" is necessary for optimal development.

But if you think of a 4 year old as really only "half done" it's easier to not see them as adults just because they're more or less starting to look like adults. (Which isn't really true either as horses chance a LOT between 4 and 8.) I stopped getting any taller at 12 but I was certainly not an adult!! :)
 
I'm amazed at how slowly my ISH is developing and he's only 16.2. (just)

Adjust your mind set with yours. When he is obliging and willing, stop working him. Mine takes 10 minutes to stop arsing & concentrate, then we get 15 minutes of effort, then we stop with me getting off, loosening girth and giving him a lot of fuss. You do feel like you are doing everything very slowly, but it is worth it when you feel them enjoying their work.I would write this year off and just have some nice hacks and fun stuff in your place, any schooling would be done on lanes.

Having said all that I would also give him a going over to ensure he isn't sore anywhere, I am constantly amazed at how many sore and overcooked young horses I see out and about. It's no wonder there are so many unsound animals around these days.
 
Great thread with some superb responses. I was beginning to think I was alone in having a huge bee in my bonnet about horses being started and worked too hard at too young an age. I rarely touch anything until it is 4 - and usually only lightly back and pootle around on 4 yr olds. When you can usually bank on having 15 years of riding enjoyment ahead of you, why deny them those last few years of being babies?

Tarrsteps - some really interesting info there - thank you.
 
^ Thanks. :)

I will say, just to qualify, that I am not necessarily of the "the slower the better" school. There is ample evidence of the advantage of optimal stresses, developmental windows and other "teaching science" that supports a measured but progressive approach. Just like kids, some horses will benefit from a quicker pace if they are physically and mentally precocious. Holding a horse back, missing those window or repeating useless things ad nauseum won't necessarily help either. But that doesn't mean that just because they can, they should.

If it's going well and the horse is learning more quickly than average, usually putting it in the field for a bit won't hurt at all but realistically, people often don't do that when they want to "go slowly", they just keep repeating at that level. That's true per session and over all - if a horse "gets" something right off, doing it over and over is not necessarily doing the horse a favour. If something is not getting better, it's getting worse.

The trick is reading the situation and making the best choices for the individual. And, perhaps more importantly, admitting as quickly as possible if you have got it wrong and redressing the balance.

Work should be FUN for the horse. Not sit on the sofa fun, active outdoor playing fun. Horse think with their bodies and teaching them to be athletes should not be a horrible chore for either party! Stretching them, pushing the boundaries should, ideally, be like play for a horse. Like for kids - sometimes when you play, you get hurt, but if you don't push it a bit don't get the fun, either. :) There should be joy in the horse's work, no matter what age it is.
 
Thanks for all the replies - some really good advice. I think I have given in to the comments of friends like "he's 4, not a young horse anymore and should be established in work by now". I am all in favour of taking it slowly and I have no major plans except for some local dressage when were both confident together. He's a lovely horse so I certainly don't want to ruin him. Last night in the arena the guy in the yard helping me just wanted to get a tough rider on him and be very hard on him - I'm not in favour of this. They did suggest hunting, I think I may be able to get a friend to hunt him, I have hacked him down the lane and along the road a little and he was a star. He does huff and puff alot with his size and lack of muscle.
I have been working a lot in walk then a trot on both reins and only recently started asking for canter. I have worked out that asking for canter earlier seems to prevent strop setting in - I wouldn't say I have worked him hard schooling wise. I used to lunge for a few mins but stopped now he is in more regular ridden work. He is worked maybe 2 days a week normally however at the moment I am off work so he is worked 4-5 times, I suppose the increase hasn't helped him.
I don't ride him onto the contact - with his breeding he naturally carries himself in a lovely outline - my reins are long and without a strong contact. He used to come behind the bit alot in the beginning and I dropped the contact and rode him long and low because I didn't want him to coil himself up too tight and strain himself. I am working hard to be as light with my hands as possible with him.
I have him on the walker daily to build up some of his muscles. He gets a run around the arena and roll each day with my other horse - if I move yards he may go out in the field for the winter. He was out most of the summer. Funny the guy who broke him in commented that the horse seemed to prefer being out in the field to stabling. I have tried to find a field to rent but no luck so far and the horses are off the land now at my yard.
I didn't get his back done the last time the lady was out as he hadn't really done anything - I might just get her out to give him a going over.
He gets towed along everywhere my other horse goes just to get some experience of getting out and about - he even went in the spa and loved it.
Thanks again everyone.
 
Just my thought on this one - how long has he not had any turnout for? I'd say my young horse has developed a huge amount of his own balance and muscle by living out as much as possible (minimum 12 hours a day, 24/7 in summer) and having to walk up and down hills etc? Id guess a young horse kept in a lot would be a fair bit weaker than one who is out having to carry themselves around?
Fwiw mine is now 5 and a bit and we have just started to ask him to work properly.
 
Most the ISH I get as 3/4yo's are stuffy types with 15min attention spans!! Basically the best thing to do is get them going forward, hacking, cubbing, shows, fun stuff out of the school. No pressure at all, I try to avoid any kind of schooling with them apart from when out hacking.
I had one 4yo that I struggled to even trot a circle she was so backwards, (mother had to chase with a lunge whip till she got the hint!) now a year later as a 5yo she is the most forward going thing out there winning at newcomers level and age classes jumping 1m30 at home and entered for her first Novice BE after double clears at BE100. She also spent most her 4yo standing on her hind legs so don't worry I'm sure he will grow out of it, he sounds big for a young un and needs his brain to catch up. He will get there!
 
I think there have been some great points and suggestions on this thread and i myself am currently in the process of riding my 3. 1/2 year old out but like others have said 4 isnt old enough to be expected to work hard in an arena.

I was in a similiar position everyone telling me get riding out and schooling then others saying throw away and let mature.. difficult decision with pro's and con's to both i think so ive taken the attitude of light hacking out and about letting her see the world in a relaxed situtation without asking for working in outlines and building topline instantly through schooling.These can be built slowly through maturing and selected work.

I work my mare 4-5 times a week she lives out 24/7 at the moment but i do maximum 15mins in the school twice a week this may be as simple as a nice 20m circle of trot or a good transition made then we leave the arena and go for a quiet long reined hack to the end of the lane as reward or round the fields the rest of the time we hack out.. well continue this for the rest of winter and into next year or until the weather allows us. But if for any reason this reduces i wont mind as like others say will give her chance to mature.

Every horse is different and everyones expectations are different dont be disheartened if he's finding things hard and maybe not progressing as fast as youd like, you have all the time in the world. I think the key is finding a happy medium for both you and the horse to work with use your hacks as enjoyment and reward for him but add a SMALL amount of work into them for him maybe work on roads asking him for some good consistent contact 2-3 mins at the start and then maybe again at the end and your middle part relaxed rains as reward.

I wish you all the luck and remember horses are a learning curve no one no matter how opinionated or how knowledgeable they are knows everything about every horse so take your time and learn togeather. there will be ups and downs but take your time to figure out what methods work for you and YOUR horse. :) xxxxxx
 
Not "funny" I mean "ah yes I remembered" type funny. Unfortunately it's very hard to find winter turnout at yards in Ireland. I know he was stabled as a youngster over winter as I used to stable my other horse at the breeders yard and nothing was out on the land over winter. It's been about 4 weeks my 2 have been back in stables, I had planned on having them out 12 hrs/day still but the rain trashed the paddocks so the YO offers woodchip tiny turnout areas - not much bigger than the stable really hence why I at least get them out for a blast and roll in the big arena - better than nothing.
 
Makes a bit more sense now you say you're in Ireland re turnout, know you've had some rough weather out there.

It's quite funny now you think about it but it's not long ago that Ireland would send us some of the best hunters/cross-country horses there were and you would find later that they had already done a season's hunting by the time they were three which we wouldn't dream of but these same horses still went on to give, in some cases, teens of years service without a problem at all because they were given the time to mature at their own rate in a more natural shape to what is asked now. Now everyone seems to want to 'do' dressage and schools accordingly possibly using foreign bred stock instead of home grown Irish rooted stock, forgetting what hard work it is for them at that age compared to the lower stresses of hunting and hacking. Makes you wonder what's the working life of a horse schooled so early for the discipline of dressage compared to the hunters is now.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to take umbrage with ' dressage breaks horses'. ;) No, BAD dressage breaks horses. Forcing breaks horses. Trying to make a horse be something it's not breaks horses. Riding a reasonably built horse intelligently and correctly in any discipline at moderate levels shouldn't break it.

Top horses often go to multiple Olympics now - almost unheard of previously.

Also, I'd bet that old style approach involved a fair bit of attrition - if the horse didn't survive it then it wasn't suitable. If it did that was likely because it was suitable and and built for the job - just the sort that would last. And if it didn't stand up there wasn't much you could do other than rest. If it was strong enough, it came back.

A horse with a fixed neck, even on a light contact isn't doing itself any favours. I'd agree, as I said, people are more likely to avoid that trap doing other things but I'm not sure that in some cases it's more luck than design. ;)
 
Please take note of the advice on here. My boy is just turned 5 and 17.2hh TBXWB has come back from bring backed/produced with juvenile arthiritis in both hocks. Devastated doesn't come close.

Who knows but I wholly regret him spending 8 months with a pro showjumper at the cost of £5k. Maybe if I had left him till he was older. he may not be going through what he is at the moment.

I guess I trusted them too much to not work him too hard and it comes to light, they didn't stop when they thought there may be a problem (or even inform us as his owners)

So tread lightly with your chap, lots of hacking like the guys say, he is not ready for serious work.

Good luck
 
I'm not disagreeing with you at all TS, your comments are spot on and I take on board that only the fittest survived or was discarded as not strong enough but what or how I meant it to sound like (and failed miserably by the sound of it!) was that nowadays, with the greater degree of emphasis on dressage and schooling - and a lot of the time, simply because the people don't actually know any better, it's just what and how they are being taught nowadays, - they all 'expect' each and every horse to go in an outline almost from the word go let alone acknowledging that the poor youngsters haven't strengthened up enough to carry that outline which is when a slow down of tactics needs to be used.
Luckily, for this horse the OP is open minded enough to try a different tack but she says herself, how many on her yard are pressing her that 'he should be doing this or that by now as he is four after all' which shows, not their knowledge but their lack of understanding for the physical and mental well-being of this (and how many others?) horse.
That is the worrying thing that some (and not only dressage oriented people) seem to be ignoring individuality of the horse in front of them and instead adopting a time scale which is unrealistic and unfair for that particular horse, little realising the damage and future heartbreak they could be causing.
 
Not only that Maesfen, but all the expectation on young horses results in them working in arenas for hours a week. I think the surfaces can be terrible for young horses.

When you walk across some arenas they are awful & deep and many people simply don't give enough though to whether their surface is a good one, or have the funds to invest in one.

When a really good rider educates a young horse it's without the trial and error and mistakes the rest of us make, and so I think is far less wearing, and requires far less physical work to get to the same point. Sadly I think people like me, will spend far too long going in circles in a school to acheive similar results.
 
http://s1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee399/olliecp77/

There are some videos above of him being ridden by a friend for prob one of the first times after coming back from breaking and having 3 months off work, allbeit stabled due to snow problems.
I have sinced moved to a new yard with better facilities and he seems to prefer outdoor arena and it's much bigger for him.

I'm on the border between north and south Ireland.

I'll get him out hacking and try to talk YO around to getting some turnout.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.

Hunting at 3 and 4 is common in Ireland as is 24/7 stabling and bringing horses on at 3/4 - ready to sell to UK...
 
TarrSteps said:
For reference, even "average" horses are 7-8 before they are fully mature, all the joints closed etc. In fact the joints that close last - the ones in the spine - are arguably some of the most important! And evidence suggests big horses take longer.
Click to expand...

Definitely agree with this, my very big TB suddenly blossomed in his 9th year, he is a late foal anyway and he had a poor start. Give him time and take the pressure off.
 
Olliecp77 said:
http://s1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee399/olliecp77/

There are some videos above of him being ridden by a friend for prob one of the first times after coming back from breaking and having 3 months off work, allbeit stabled due to snow problems.
I have sinced moved to a new yard with better facilities and he seems to prefer outdoor arena and it's much bigger for him.
Click to expand...

He looks like a nice big horse! BUT - he is NOT going forward. And until a horse is balanced and forward, schooling is a waste of time (and hard on hocks and back!) When we back youngsters, we do JUST enough in the school to make them safe to hack with a sensible companion - and then they hack for 3 months (minimum!) Of course, you can still educate a horse while hacking - and do a far better job of it.

When they've done the hacking, they then come into the school for 10-20 minutes, usually 3 times a week, with hacking on the other days. The indoor looks small - and it is NOT a good environment for a big, unbalanced horse.
 
Thanks JanetGeorge - I have given him some time off and getting him in field as much as YO will allow - heavy rain unfortunately recently so its hard. I am going to hack him tomorrow maybe. The indoor was at a yard I was only at for a few months so he now has a large outdoor school which he is more forward and balanced. I had a good rider ride him recently and he commented that he was very balanced for a young horse. I'd like to turn him away for the winter if I can find a field!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top