stubborn, lazy lunger who hates nearly everything!

querida93 said:
all our rescues are spoilt I admit that and wont change
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Well then sorry but I'm not sure what you're trying to get out of this? If what you're doing isn't working, then you change. If you won't change, neither will the situation.

ETA - its worth remembering that rescue horses need structure and boundaries, if anything, MORE than other horses.
 
cptrayes said:
The last horse I saw behave this way had EPSM.

Does he ever look as if his muscles hurt? Are his feet sore on big stones? Does he ever have strange panic attacks?

EMS/IR Can do it too. Same questions as above, plus does he eat as if he's always starving? Is he overweight, and be honest !?!
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Oh gosh could you please tell me a bit about this? Got me worried now!
He has panic attacks as described about the pigs & has done them twice for seemingly no reason at yard but we put him in field thinking was a tantrum & he calmed down within minutes. We don't have stones near us so I couldn't tell you on that one. With the muscles, I am sure with his personality if I was hurting him while riding I'd be off, but that being said I am very small and we have always thought he's quite cold backed in that he always braces himself for the saddle. So we've just always put numnah on, waited, saddle on, waited etc.
He eats likes he's starving but no he's not overweight, we actually really struggle to keep weight on him in winter but he can get fat over summer.

Please explain this to me I'm all worried now (bit of a worrier with my animals!) xx
 
Others have made the point ;) :)

If you do decide to lunge and he plants, turn him. Don't car how you do it, but get him moving his feet, even if you end up going round in tiny circles. If he plants, then pull him the other way. If he chooses to go right, you make him go left and vice versa. In short, you tell him which direction his legs are going.
 
No I'm looking for help, but I think in the same post I said I don't want to scare/hurt or bully him. I've tried giving him a smack it didn't work. I wondered if people have other ideas I could try or just things to keep him interested to incorporate in groundwork. I've been told road work is fine which was very helpful. If you have any suggestions for them points, great. I already know he's spoilt I'm just looking for ideas to try, thats what I want to get out of this post.
 
MrsMozart said:
Others have made the point ;) :)

If you do decide to lunge and he plants, turn him. Don't car how you do it, but get him moving his feet, even if you end up going round in tiny circles. If he plants, then pull him the other way. If he chooses to go right, you make him go left and vice versa. In short, you tell him which direction his legs are going.
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oh I didnt think of trying that, he turns in circles on command, could try that & praise him and see if he then walks! What do you think? :) x
 
If hell do it on command then try it, if not then do it by whatever means you have. Once you have him going one way, change direction, change the number of circles, add in a forward step, and a back up step. He will start to look to you for your ques.

I've done this with a few stubborn horses, including two that were completely oblivious to the whip. I had to get their brains engaged and focused on me. Sometimes ended up a bit dizzy, but it's not failed yet. Works under saddle as well.
 
querida93 said:
I've tried giving him a smack it didn't work. I wondered if people have other ideas I could try
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Smack him harder?
I'm trying to constructive but he's just taking the pee. It is far KINDER to give a horse one good whack than constantly nag and nag and be inconsistent and confuse it.
That is my advice.
But before you discount it, Im not boasting but ALL of my own horses and those that I school behave and have manners. Plus, I'm a respected and busy qualified instructor, so I must be getting something right :) ;)
 
MrsMozart said:
If hell do it on command then try it, if not then do it by whatever means you have. Once you have him going one way, change direction, change the number of circles, add in a forward step, and a back up step. He will start to look to you for your ques.

I've done this with a few stubborn horses, including two that were completely oblivious to the whip. I had to get their brains engaged and focused on me. Sometimes ended up a bit dizzy, but it's not failed yet. Works under saddle as well.
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That actually sounds like it could be really effective with him, I'll give it a go & post what happens! Thank you, this sounds just like the sort of thing he might respond to! x
 
SnowOnSnow said:
Smack him harder?
I'm trying to constructive but he's just taking the pee. It is far KINDER to give a horse one good whack than constantly nag and nag and be inconsistent and confuse it.
That is my advice.
But before you discount it, Im not boasting but ALL of my own horses and those that I school behave and have manners. Plus, I'm a respected and busy qualified instructor, so I must be getting something right :) ;)
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Okay fair enough, sorry for getting a bit grumpy I can get a bit too defensive of them all!
I'll give it a go, I think where I've ended at a loss is if the others ever tried anything like this, where I never normally use any sort of whip, once I got it out and they got one smack for being naughty they were so stunned I'd given them a smack it sorted them out! So its not that I don't agree with what you're saying as similar has worked at times when the others have got it in their heads to be stubborn be it being ridden/lunged/groundwork.
It's just when I tried with him what has always been my litttle card up my sleeve just got me a look like "and.." and I'm not about to beat him & I mean I am only tiny and in my head I'm hitting him fairly hard!!
No I'm sure you have very well behaved horses, don't get me wrong but I don't feel I'm a bad mummy to mine either, I've mean none of mine bite/barge or are naughty to be ridden (except for pigs!) at all since I've had them so its not like I've got this herd of horses beating me senseless! I am a soft touch and they are treated the same as our other animals in they are spoilt & maybe don't ask for the same level of manners as I'm sure you get!! But I've just never had one flat out go no for no reason & been at a loss to deal with it!!
No I do thank you for suggestions, I fully admit I can get a bit protective irrationally sometimes!
 
querida93 said:
Oh gosh could you please tell me a bit about this? Got me worried now!
He has panic attacks as described about the pigs & has done them twice for seemingly no reason at yard but we put him in field thinking was a tantrum & he calmed down within minutes. We don't have stones near us so I couldn't tell you on that one. With the muscles, I am sure with his personality if I was hurting him while riding I'd be off, but that being said I am very small and we have always thought he's quite cold backed in that he always braces himself for the saddle. So we've just always put numnah on, waited, saddle on, waited etc.
He eats likes he's starving but no he's not overweight, we actually really struggle to keep weight on him in winter but he can get fat over summer.

Please explain this to me I'm all worried now (bit of a worrier with my animals!) xx
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I think you should consider having an EPSM biopsy done before you beat this horse.

I happily hit horses which need a wallop, I am no bunny hugger, but I have seen extremely similar behaviour in a horse with it, and when beaten to make him move he simply decked the rider. It was very odd to see, the horse did not look ill or upset, he simply seemed to be as stubborn as a mule.

Alternatively, put him on the EPSM diet of very high oil, 12-30,000 iu of vitamin a, low starch, high fibre. And see if his behaviour changes.

You did sound very soft on your first post, but your later explanations make me think this horse is ill.
 
Oh god I'd never beat him! I felt horrible after a couple of smacks! (yes I am a bit of a soft touch) I will give any of them a hit as a very last resort but the fact he didn't respond in slightest did seem odd.

Okay I'll give our vet a ring tomorrow, hes very well behaved & forward going to ride though? is that likely still?
Okay do you have any recommendations for feeds, i'm sure if it turns out he does have it my vet will but would it hurt to but him on one in the meantime - our vet who tends to have a few day wait list for non emergencies after the holidays plus i'm assuming the biopsy will take a while to come back?

Hes a connie on alfa - a oil chaff with a balancer as it is so would that provide some of the oil? at total loss - tried to have a google but think the pages were all describing the worst symptoms as he never really shivers unless hes terrified.
 
querida93 said:
Oh god I'd never beat him! I felt horrible after a couple of smacks! (yes I am a bit of a soft touch) I will give any of them a hit as a very last resort but the fact he didn't respond in slightest did seem odd.

Okay I'll give our vet a ring tomorrow, hes very well behaved & forward going to ride though? is that likely still?
Okay do you have any recommendations for feeds, i'm sure if it turns out he does have it my vet will but would it hurt to but him on one in the meantime - our vet who tends to have a few day wait list for non emergencies after the holidays plus i'm assuming the biopsy will take a while to come back?

Hes a connie on alfa - a oil chaff with a balancer as it is so would that provide some of the oil? at total loss - tried to have a google but think the pages were all describing the worst symptoms as he never really shivers unless hes terrified.
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Well I take it all back of he is very forward going ridden.
 
What about long reining?

2 lunge ropes and you could walk him on the road (you behind) or long rein him in the school so not just going round in a circle.

Honestly, i think you need help with him. You also have more control riding than on the ground so i would avoid getting off to lead past scary things. A good, firm instructor and no fluffy bunny approaches - your horse is taking the mick and sometimes in a nappy horse a yard brush can be very helpful. It is soft, wont hurt and the bristles will encourage him to move forwards. If you could get a person on yard to hold brush behind him and if he wont leave the yard after a leg squeeze, the use a kick. If no reaction person could use brush and just touch him behind, just touch and hold so no beating/whacking/overuse of brush. No pain, just a different sensation.
Any movement forwards should be rewarded immediately,! :) positive reinforcement works :)
 
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oh okay! yes I mean he can go lazy in school towards the end but yes he can think hes a bloody race horse at times, especially first 15 mins!

sorry if that wasn't clear! I wasn't sure if you you just meant a stubborn disposition can be a sign, because he does have the real "stubborn teenager" trait at times especially with this refusual to put one foot in front of other when lunging!

thank you though for the suggestion, always good to be aware of possible problems!

I'll get him doing road work & try to keep his feet moving as suggested above by other things next time do give lunging a go. Thank you very much for everyones suggestions for my boy too :)
 
My 4 yo can get a bit lazy on the lunge on occasion. Cracking the lunge whip normally sends him forward, but if he ignores that I will flick the whip at his hind legs so it is just touching him. And failing that he gets a bloody crack on the arse with it. He has yet to be traumatised for any of it, and the vast majority of the time he lunges beautifully.
 
only_me said:
What about long reining?

2 lunge ropes and you could walk him on the road (you behind) or long rein him in the school so not just going round in a circle.

Honestly, i think you need help with him. You also have more control riding than on the ground so i would avoid getting to lead past scary things. A good, firm instructor and no fluffy bunny approaches - your horse is taking the mick and sometimes in a nappy horse a yard brush can be very helpful. It is soft, wont hurt and the bristles will encourage him to move forwards. If you could get a person on yard to hold brush behind him and if he wont leave the yard after a leg squeeze, the use a kick. If no reaction person could use brush and just touch him behind. No pain, just a different sensation.
Any movement forwards should be rewarded immediately,! :) positive reinforcement works :)
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Fully agree on positive reinforcement!
Oh its a long driveway he doesnt like going down as one way leads to the pigs but the other to the road
With this I do think once he registers I've almost given up on the pigs & we're going down the road much more often hell stop worrying - as soon as I let him almost push himself to the side that leads to the road he stops playing up and soon as im on and on the road we have no problems for the rest of the hack so I think its more anticipation of the pigs but I could be wrong! - though long lining him up and down it will probably reinforce this more so that could be a good idea!

The brush sounds a fantastic idea though - will definitely keep that in mind!!

he's good with long lining so yes could definitely be an idea to incorporate that into our groundwork more often
 
Holding said:
My 4 yo can get a bit lazy on the lunge on occasion. Cracking the lunge whip normally sends him forward, but if he ignores that I will flick the whip at his hind legs so it is just touching him. And failing that he gets a bloody crack on the arse with it. He has yet to be traumatised for any of it, and the vast majority of the time he lunges beautifully.
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oh thank you, I'm sure he's not! I do worry more than I should about hurting him I'm sure - its just I was so stunned when I did hit him I just got no response whatsoever & felt like me & the lady who owns the yard were almost flogging a dead horse once she had a go too!
 
Tiddlypom said:
That's a new one on me! Surely that would make a horse hot and cross, rather than more co-operative?
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I mentioned earlier when we were worrying he may have symtoms of EPSM that he might be a bit cold backed, so it might help in that sense in cheering the grumpy git up! Anything's worth a go :) or it'll go the utter opposite way! haha god knows with him! x
 
Ride out with someone else on the roads to the other end of the bridleway, and return home past the pigs,lots of positive strong riding with praise and titbits ,once you are past them .Once you have done this a few times ,immediately turn round and go past them ,more praise and titbits then turn round and head home ,yet more praise and titbits ,ditto next couple of times out . Then head out past the pigs ditto P & T .Stop being soft a good sharp tap will not hurt a horse !
 
When I first got my horse as a baby, he had clearly been taught to lunge badly - he wouldn't plant but he would come straight at you with legs and teeth flying and try to swipe you in the head which was lovely of him! Funnily enough I decided I needed to get it sorted and somehow ended up getting some proper long reining lessons and because you are driving forwards from the hip not the shoulder and you have an outside line he seemed to accept this as natural herding behaviour and was much more balanced. After a couple of large explosions,he then just did as he was asked and has been a poppet ever since. It is much more interesting and he can easily to a pre-lim dressage test on them as you can move around the whole school and change rein with ease, also if he played up it was much easier to put in a circle or change direction. You can do circles, shallow loopes, serpentines, changes of pace etc etc, it is also a great way of schooling to teach voice commands too and has been invaluable to create a bond and understanding between us when ridden as he finds the voice commands reassuring. Give it a go - I hate lunging very one sided and boring but long reining can be great fun (and if done properly it definitely isn't lunging with 2 lines). You might want a quick flick through the 2nd Kelly Marks book - I think there is quite a bit on long reining tips in there. Good luck, I would never assume naughty behaviour is a horse deliberately taking the mickey, am not sure a horse woud see the point in that, although I do appreciate some are awkward. For the record, although many horses may accept a smack, mine would never forgive me and woud really up the ante - turns out mine had Kissing spines with an operation needed so he had good reason to be unhelpful. Whilst I am sure there is nothing wrong with your horse, firm but fair is the key I think and I am def not a bunny hugger! Yours may just hate lunging and need to try something different!
 
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