Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Another very interesting article and I bet the thesis would make very good reading... HHO Article
Study shows complications during foaling on the rise
- Thread starter Anastasia
- Start date
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
Yes I thought it was interesting, it ashame AP hasn't got internet at them moment, because I would have liked to hear his views on this article...
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
Morning
I have internet for a little bit today... so here are my brief thoughts:
What a fantastic study! Very well carried out and very interesting results. I have to say that I link this very closely with the way that we breed for conformation and performance (and maybe temperament), but not much else...
Some time ago, I posted on here saying that we need to create a better "artificial system of evolution", taking into account other factors, such as fertility, and possibly ease of foaling, among other things.
If these mares who had complications were in the wild, "survival of the fittest" would come into play, and it is likely that the foal, and the mare would perish. Therefore, mares who are not properly constructed for carrying and producing foals would be selected against, and would not produce any offspring.
Until breeders start paying more attention to these important, but not-performance-related, factors into account, then these problems will only get worse. Be prepared for decreasing fertility, more problems with foaling, more genetic diseases, more lameness etc. as we interfere and manage evolution with our own performance-orientated goals in mind. Perhaps the ideal TB racing conformation is at odds with easy-foaling conformation... this might help to explain the rate at which the number of difficult foalings has increased over the years.
I think that many breeders do take these factors into account, but I know that many do not... and this is clear from the results of this study. I'm trying to get hold of a copy of the original so I can look at the statistics.
I have internet for a little bit today... so here are my brief thoughts:
What a fantastic study! Very well carried out and very interesting results. I have to say that I link this very closely with the way that we breed for conformation and performance (and maybe temperament), but not much else...
Some time ago, I posted on here saying that we need to create a better "artificial system of evolution", taking into account other factors, such as fertility, and possibly ease of foaling, among other things.
If these mares who had complications were in the wild, "survival of the fittest" would come into play, and it is likely that the foal, and the mare would perish. Therefore, mares who are not properly constructed for carrying and producing foals would be selected against, and would not produce any offspring.
Until breeders start paying more attention to these important, but not-performance-related, factors into account, then these problems will only get worse. Be prepared for decreasing fertility, more problems with foaling, more genetic diseases, more lameness etc. as we interfere and manage evolution with our own performance-orientated goals in mind. Perhaps the ideal TB racing conformation is at odds with easy-foaling conformation... this might help to explain the rate at which the number of difficult foalings has increased over the years.
I think that many breeders do take these factors into account, but I know that many do not... and this is clear from the results of this study. I'm trying to get hold of a copy of the original so I can look at the statistics.
magic104
Well-Known Member
Very good point, & you probably have a valid point. It would be interesting to know if this increase is confined to the SH & TB breeder. On another point I had only heard of the odd case of mares foaling during the day. Despite neither of my last 2 being disturbed in any way 1 foaled at 4.45pm & the other started about 8.30pm. In the wild this would have made both very vunerable to preditors.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
AP glad you could join us, even for a short period of time...
The study is a good one, but I am still not 100% sure on certain things. For instance last year we lost a foal due to placental seperation, yet this year the mare is a year older and gave us a healthy filly........both times covered with the same stallion.....
Magic.....all our mares 99% of the time tend to foal during the night, so again you would think that would be the optimum time for predators also......
The study is a good one, but I am still not 100% sure on certain things. For instance last year we lost a foal due to placental seperation, yet this year the mare is a year older and gave us a healthy filly........both times covered with the same stallion.....
Magic.....all our mares 99% of the time tend to foal during the night, so again you would think that would be the optimum time for predators also......
magic104
Well-Known Member
Yes but by foaling at night they stand more chance of going unseen & by the time they have to come out into the open the foal, calf whatever will be strong enough to run with the herd. It would be far too dangerous for Zebra to foal in the open in broad daylight because both the mare & the foal are at risk. Bear in mind nearly all mares get down at some point, they therefore would be easy prey.
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
...but I am still not 100% sure on certain things. For instance last year we lost a foal due to placental seperation, yet this year the mare is a year older and gave us a healthy filly........both times covered with the same stallion.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, evolution and breeding don't instantly produce mares that have no ability to have a healthy foal; but the problems get worse and worse as genetic material predisposing mares to pregnancy/parturition problems increases through breeding mares with the "wrong" genes.
I would imagine that, if you bred this mare to a stallion whose dam-line contained mares that also had problems with placental separation then the next generation, or later generations may suffer placental separation more times than not, and eventually, if you kept breeding from these lines, then you might get a mare that simply could not carry a foal to full term.
Sorry if that's a bit wordy and babbled. I'm even sure how much of placental separation is caused by genetics and how much is caused by environmental factors (e.g. infection, the weather etc.), but at the end of the day, I think what I said above makes sense.
If we keep breeding horses using parents with "faulty" fertility genes, and other genes predisposing them to all sorts of problems, then these things will only get worse with each generation. I still think we need to be more aware of what it is exactly that we're breeding.
...but I am still not 100% sure on certain things. For instance last year we lost a foal due to placental seperation, yet this year the mare is a year older and gave us a healthy filly........both times covered with the same stallion.....
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, evolution and breeding don't instantly produce mares that have no ability to have a healthy foal; but the problems get worse and worse as genetic material predisposing mares to pregnancy/parturition problems increases through breeding mares with the "wrong" genes.
I would imagine that, if you bred this mare to a stallion whose dam-line contained mares that also had problems with placental separation then the next generation, or later generations may suffer placental separation more times than not, and eventually, if you kept breeding from these lines, then you might get a mare that simply could not carry a foal to full term.
Sorry if that's a bit wordy and babbled. I'm even sure how much of placental separation is caused by genetics and how much is caused by environmental factors (e.g. infection, the weather etc.), but at the end of the day, I think what I said above makes sense.
If we keep breeding horses using parents with "faulty" fertility genes, and other genes predisposing them to all sorts of problems, then these things will only get worse with each generation. I still think we need to be more aware of what it is exactly that we're breeding.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Yes but by foaling at night they stand more chance of going unseen & by the time they have to come out into the open the foal, calf whatever will be strong enough to run with the herd. It would be far too dangerous for Zebra to foal in the open in broad daylight because both the mare & the foal are at risk. Bear in mind nearly all mares get down at some point, they therefore would be easy prey.
[/ QUOTE ]
But it does make you wonder though Magic because in all the wildlife programmes you tend to find the predators like lions and tigers etc sleep during the day and hunt at night...as its normally too hot during the day to hunt.
Yes but by foaling at night they stand more chance of going unseen & by the time they have to come out into the open the foal, calf whatever will be strong enough to run with the herd. It would be far too dangerous for Zebra to foal in the open in broad daylight because both the mare & the foal are at risk. Bear in mind nearly all mares get down at some point, they therefore would be easy prey.
[/ QUOTE ]
But it does make you wonder though Magic because in all the wildlife programmes you tend to find the predators like lions and tigers etc sleep during the day and hunt at night...as its normally too hot during the day to hunt.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
AP I understand fully (I think..
) what you mean. But if the said mare has had no problems with foals before then how do you know if it is hereditary, a one off or something that is going to be a problem with her in later life
. I am presuming that if it is a one off then its down to something else, although the tests came back with no infections or viruses...and we had a normal foaling in 2007.
I know that you will never know all the reasons of why foalings go wrong, as it can be a multitude of reasons, or you find nothing at all....
I know that you will never know all the reasons of why foalings go wrong, as it can be a multitude of reasons, or you find nothing at all....
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
Also, I'm not sure that "foaling time" is necessarily under more genetic than environmental control...
I think that the pineal gland (which communicates information about lighting/daylight to the rest of the brain) gets confused by artificial lighting in a stabled situation. Since a lot of people bring their mares in for foaling, they end up "confusing" the mare's biological clock & hormone levels, and she ends up having the foal at, what we think of as, a strange time.
Whether or not it's the best time to avoid predators... I'm not sure. I can see where both Magic and AnusTinsel
p) are coming from... it's a very old evolution-induced system that has been altered and has become semi-redundant since the horse was "domesticated" all those centuries/millenia ago... If anyone knows the precise science of night-time parturition, then let us know!!!
I think that the pineal gland (which communicates information about lighting/daylight to the rest of the brain) gets confused by artificial lighting in a stabled situation. Since a lot of people bring their mares in for foaling, they end up "confusing" the mare's biological clock & hormone levels, and she ends up having the foal at, what we think of as, a strange time.
Whether or not it's the best time to avoid predators... I'm not sure. I can see where both Magic and AnusTinsel
p) are coming from... it's a very old evolution-induced system that has been altered and has become semi-redundant since the horse was "domesticated" all those centuries/millenia ago... If anyone knows the precise science of night-time parturition, then let us know!!!
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
AP.........very funny
......I have a horrible feeling that the new name is going to stick like a fat fly to the windscreen.....
Its all terribly interesting.........
Its all terribly interesting.........
springfallstud
Well-Known Member
I do agree with you all but like AnusTinsel
how would you know?? I have tried to find out a few things about a certain German sire's offspring, not the healthy ones you see the ones you dont see i want to know about but getting blood out of a stone is easier
More and more people are using stallions from aboard but how do we really know what the % of foals, mares with problems are??
We had a mare have placenta seperation and lost her first foal, the same happened on the 2nd one but she was delivered in time and this years colt came in a text book delivery...go figure
We had a mare have placenta seperation and lost her first foal, the same happened on the 2nd one but she was delivered in time and this years colt came in a text book delivery...go figure
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Whaaa ha ha ha ha ha....nooooooooooo.............theresssss nooooo escaping the new nickname................aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
ROTFLMAO ........................ Anus Tinsel, its catching!!! ha ha ha HA HA HA HA ...........
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Veerryyyyyyyyyy fffuunnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.............
magic104
Well-Known Member
Veerryyyyyyyyyy fffuunnnnyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy............. Sure is I am giggling away, & it is causing more trouble with my typing then usual. I do like this part of the forum, more nutters (the nice kind).
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
We had a mare have placenta seperation and lost her first foal, the same happened on the 2nd one but she was delivered in time and this years colt came in a text book delivery...go figure
[/ QUOTE ]
I have only had one mare who lost a foal due to premature placental seperation. She had live foals most years from 1995 until I bought her in foal in 2003 and she lost that foal to a 'red bag' delivery at about 290 days with no reason found at post mortem. She's had live, healthy foals with no problems in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and is in foal for 2008. I don't think there's a genetic reason for this - I sure hope not as I have two of her daughters in foal for 2008!
We had a mare have placenta seperation and lost her first foal, the same happened on the 2nd one but she was delivered in time and this years colt came in a text book delivery...go figure
[/ QUOTE ]
I have only had one mare who lost a foal due to premature placental seperation. She had live foals most years from 1995 until I bought her in foal in 2003 and she lost that foal to a 'red bag' delivery at about 290 days with no reason found at post mortem. She's had live, healthy foals with no problems in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 and is in foal for 2008. I don't think there's a genetic reason for this - I sure hope not as I have two of her daughters in foal for 2008!