subjectivity of condition scoring

windand rain

windand rain

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Had a pro on the yard whose job involved conditions scoring the ponies
weight taped all the ponies at the same time by the same person so done in the same place
Lightest on the weight tape scored the highest on the pro's condition score
Heaviest came out at the lowest score on the condition score
the two in between came the wrong way round in the condition score according to the weight tape. Now I know the figures on the weight tape are not accurate but if each one was put in order they were almost exactly opposite on the condition score done by the pro
 
I'm not sure what you're trying to get across?

If you want to know weight then use a weighbridge, if you want to condition score you need someone who knows what they're on about.
 
sorry not getting the point across very well the point being the fattest one scored the least on the condition score done by a professional the slimmest one (quite obviously to me) scored the highest. All are cobby natives about the same height what I am tryiing to say is that the condition score even done by a pro who does it a hundred times a day is so subjective it can never be accurate
 
Condition score is about condition, tape is about weight.
The weigh tape is useful for individual horses to monitor weight loss or weight gain.
Tapes are based on the average horse, ie having weighed a number of horses, and weighed them , the tapes are made up to correlate. There is usually one [side] for ponies and one for horses.
I find the measurement method [calculations involved] is more accurate, but I think it is developed from the T.B type, again, any extreme type would be less accurate.
 
windand rain said:
sorry not getting the point across very well the point being the fattest one scored the least on the condition score done by a professional the slimmest one (quite obviously to me) scored the highest. All are cobby natives about the same height what I am tryiing to say is that the condition score even done by a pro who does it a hundred times a day is so subjective it can never be accurate
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It may be that he is wrong or you are wrong. There are you.tube examples.
 
SO what you're saying is that you think that the pro got it wrong compared to your view? Or that the pro got it wrong compared to the weight?
 
As others have said weight tapes just do weight. Condition scoring looks at fat deposits. Do the "fatter" ones on the condition scoring have bigger crests, apple shaped bottoms, fat behind shoulder, can't feel ribs etc.
 
SO1 said:
As others have said weight tapes just do weight. Condition scoring looks at fat deposits. Do the "fatter" ones on the condition scoring have bigger crests, apple shaped bottoms, fat behind shoulder, can't feel ribs etc.
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This.

on a scale I look quite fine.

If, god forbid, anyone was to condition score my somewhat wobbly (yet nowhere near obese) body... I would score quite horrifically indeed. :(

I'm not fat to look at, but I could certainly do with a lot more tone. I'm sure my BMI is more than acceptable though.

So think of it that way, it's like looking at BMI only, and calling a bodybuilder "obese" because he is off the charts.
 
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I would have thought the weigh tape was wrong? Because it's really only a vague estimation. The only way to accurately weigh a horse is on a weigh bridge.

Also, as others have said, weight and condition are different things and don't necessarily correlate.
 
The only use for a weigh tape is to tell you whether any individual horse is getting fatter or thinner over time, and even then they aren't very good. They don't tell you a horses weight, you can only get that by weighing them. They only tell you what the average horse with that girth would weigh. And those averages were worked out before it was routine to keep horses so fat.

Your pro was either useless at condition scoring or you are :) There's a fairly good definition to go by on the five point scale. I would not expect a variation of more than half a point between two people who really knew what they were doing.

I go by the ribs myself. If I can't feel them really easily in front oh the hip bones, and with only a little pressure on the main rib cage, then for me the horse is too fat.
 
Weight tapes are just an approximation and results can be swayed by variations in conformation. A narrow pony with a shallow depth of girth (yet with cresty neck and fatty bottom) may measure less on a weight tape than a similar height but fit pony who has a deep girth and a wide chest. If the condition scoring has been done properly then I would put more store by that if you are wanting to know which animals need to put on/loose weight.
 
Wieght tapes are a bit of a waste of time in my experiance .
I take mine down to the vets if I want to know what they wiegh.
Condition scoring is a better guide to the too slim too fat question as you take take into account the presence of fat pads and the muscle tone of the horse.
When I was a welfare officer we where taught to also look at how the horse moved when assessing horses , in out training we were shown slides of all types of horses including very very slim racehorses the day after racing to reiterate that slim horses can be very healthy and not a welfare issue.
 
Don't understand, like others have said weight and condition are not necessarily the same thing. Also, I'm confused because your're talking about comparing 4 different horses and comparing weight and condition. Even if they're the same type they're likely to have differences in confirmation etc like one of the posters above has said the result on the weigh tape will vary depending on how deep the girth is as well as how much fat is covering the ribs??
 
I think weigh tapes are usually out by about 50kg for most horses and ponies, less for the miniature types.

As for condition scoring, it's done because you can't tell 'by eye'. Which you seem to have proven :)
 
Blurr said:
I think weigh tapes are usually out by about 50kg for most horses and ponies, less for the miniature types.

As for condition scoring, it's done because you can't tell 'by eye'. Which you seem to have proven :)
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Don't know where you got that from but one of my shetlands is roughly 75kgs lighter than what the weigh tape says (and I've used a couple of different weigh tapes).

I also find the tapes next to useless as they only measure around the barrel of the horse with no allowances for height and length. The Shetland above weigh tapes at 290kgs but is around 215kgs where as my friends pony (TBxWelsh) weigh tapes at 300kgs but is actually 365kgs. Same size belly but very different shapes and proportions.
 
Maybe we could see if we agree or disagree with the expert. Have you got any photos?
 
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not that I can post as all the ponies are not mine the highest by the pros estimate is a very fit young highland mare no fat pads, only an average crest due to her breeding and not very deep yet as she is young the lowest on the scale is a cobby dales type pony with visible fat pads an apple bottom and a big crest he is deeper as he is old the middle ones I would have put higher one a 148cm welsh d fit but with a big crest and round tummy, and a slimline no weight over its ribs hafflinger to me the pro got it upside down the young highland is the fittest looking with a lean profile the lowest is a fat and underworked cob maybe it is just me but it seems to me to be a bit subjective as it rather depends on who is looking at what
 
I have 2 ponies. A fine 14hh NF mare and a chunky 13.2hh Haffy.

I taped them both yesterday and NF is 310kg and about a 4 on the condition score. Haffy is 365kg and a 2.5 on the condition score. The tape basically measures the circumference of the girth area, so a finer pony may come up lighter on the tape when in fact is more overweight. I personally only use the tape to note changes in weight up or down and for nothing else.
 
They don't really compare.

I am 5'1" and about 9 st 7.
My mum is 5'4" and just under 10 stone (I think).

I'm a size 10, she's a 12-14. I just happen to have a lot of muscle (and a little bit of chub :p)!

I got very angry when I was told by a nurse to lose some weight. I was doing at least an hour of strenuous exercise at least 5 days a week. The last nurse I went to was horrified when I told her this.
 
windand rain said:
not that I can post as all the ponies are not mine the highest by the pros estimate is a very fit young highland mare no fat pads, only an average crest due to her breeding and not very deep yet as she is young the lowest on the scale is a cobby dales type pony with visible fat pads an apple bottom and a big crest he is deeper as he is old the middle ones I would have put higher one a 148cm welsh d fit but with a big crest and round tummy, and a slimline no weight over its ribs hafflinger to me the pro got it upside down the young highland is the fittest looking with a lean profile the lowest is a fat and underworked cob maybe it is just me but it seems to me to be a bit subjective as it rather depends on who is looking at what
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So basically nothing to do with the weight tape at all, you just don't agree with the 'pros' opinion?

The actual condition scoring shouldn't be objective (e.g they either have a crest or they don't etc) but what's an 'acceptable' condition is down to opinion.
 
I appreciate that the build of the horse has more influence the point I am trying to make is that condition scoring a bit like show judging seems to be very subjective and not an accurate way of deciding on the real condition of the animal All four of these ponies are cobby types with a load of bone and the same or very close to the same height so as a comparison should have been easy to condition score they are very different ages and in very different levels of work
The highest on the score is a fit working 5 day a week pony the lowest is a fat, hack about retired pony that is ridden a few hours at the weekend
I did disagree but am a bit fed up of being told that condition scoring is the way to go when deciding if your horse is too fat or too thin surely a better guide is simply by eye If it looks like a skeleton in skin it is too thin if it has 6inch long legs and its belly trailing on the floor it is too fat. I am also a bit fed up f people starving their horses because they think they are too fat when in fact most are in great condition doing a great and comfortable job.
If they are not puffing and blowing after a good gallop or they are well covered and content and still able to do the job then they are likely ok especially if they have no bones showing and a shiny coat

The weight tape even showed by comparison that the pro was wrong
 
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I am also a bit fed up f people starving their horses because they think they are too fat when in fact most are in great condition doing a great and comfortable job.
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They can be fit and still very fat. Most highland ponies are.

I rarely see a horse too thin but I see fat and obese horses daily. I suspect you might be one of the very many who see tubby and 'well covered' as the gold standard and have a skewed eye towards the over-conditioned side.
 
Kallibear said:
They can be fit and still very fat. Most highland ponies are.

I rarely see a horse too thin but I see fat and obese horses daily. I suspect you might be one of the very many who see tubby and 'well covered' as the gold standard and have a skewed eye towards the over-conditioned side.
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Indeed.

Bringing weight tapes into it is absurd as it's not comparing like with like. If your premise is that people shouldn't bother worrying about their ponies, or doing anything to combat their excess weight, I don't think I can express how vehemently I disagree.
 
Not at all I hate to see fat horses as much as I hate to see skinny ones the tendency now on fora like these is to have horses too thin as youngsters and too fat as adults neither is in my mind a healthy option
general level of fitness This is one of my ponies she is an elderly mare and has just finished a 12 mile galloping pleasure ride
DSC01704_zps2028817e.jpg

not the pony in question
the fattest I get them this is a county show so the top end and in the Spring this pony is no longer mine but was in this photo
31308_1459982940412_7675333_n.jpg
 
I think the issue that the pro may have had is that the weigh tapes really don't work on the native types. By definition, the large M&M are sturdy barrels with relatively short legs...the Highlands are the perfect example of this as are the 'old fashioned' Welsh cobs.

The average Highland is the most perfect example of a fat preserving machine :) Even when they are in hard work and fit they tend to have an apple bum, a decent crest and will hold onto fat over the ribs and on the shoulder. As a result, they score high when condition scored. Personally, while I don't like obese horses anymore than anyone else I would expect a Highland to be square IYSWIM.

Looking at your photos the mare looks fit (and obviously is if she can do a fast 12 mile ride) but she is a bit podgy on the shoulder with a big neck which will affect the condition score - no offence meant! The bay is certainly well covered and I wouldn't like to see them much fatter tbh but still far from obese...and as a native will be designed to turn food into flab much quicker and easier than a TB for instance.

When it comes to condition scoring I do think that there is a tendency to score using a lighter type of horse as the ideal rather than looking at the animal in front of you and taking into account their breeding and natural body shape - a bit like using BMI in humans as the be all and end all in judging fitness and health.
 
I think in some ways this is quite a dangerous statement you can't fat score just by looking at a horse as you need to be able to feel but not see the horses ribs and you can only do this by touching the horse. If you can't feel the horse's ribs then your horse is definitely too fat even it is does not have a crest or apple bottom. Even if it is able to do its job being overweight, the horse especially if they are native pony type will be put at risk of getting laminitis and being overweight can also have an impact on their internal organs as well.

windand rain said:
I appreciate that the build of the horse has more influence the point I am trying to make is that condition scoring a bit like show judging seems to be very subjective and not an accurate way of deciding on the real condition of the animal All four of these ponies are cobby types with a load of bone and the same or very close to the same height so as a comparison should have been easy to condition score they are very different ages and in very different levels of work
The highest on the score is a fit working 5 day a week pony the lowest is a fat, hack about retired pony that is ridden a few hours at the weekend
I did disagree but am a bit fed up of being told that condition scoring is the way to go when deciding if your horse is too fat or too thin surely a better guide is simply by eye If it looks like a skeleton in skin it is too thin if it has 6inch long legs and its belly trailing on the floor it is too fat. I am also a bit fed up f people starving their horses because they think they are too fat when in fact most are in great condition doing a great and comfortable job.
If they are not puffing and blowing after a good gallop or they are well covered and content and still able to do the job then they are likely ok especially if they have no bones showing and a shiny coat

The weight tape even showed by comparison that the pro was wrong
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I had a 3 year old Highland colt who by show standards was not fat, in the July he was three at a show he was put on the scales and he was 465kg, he was only 13.2. I tend to have all my young stock covered but not showing fat and they are weigh taped regularly so I was very surprised at this.
I think that the idea that something is a heavy breed and there fore its OK for them to fat and believe me some of them are huge . There is a picture of a maxi-cob in an old H&H I have kept(perhaps Feb -march 2013), I think that it gone supreme champion but it had done seasons hunting. Yes it was a well made horse but you could see its muscle definition, look at a joint of beef the fat covers the muscle, so if you can not see how it works its too fat what ever build it is.
 
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