Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National

Luci07 said:
I am not a fan of the GN because a lot of the enjoyment (for me) is taken away by the fact that I do expect horses to go down/injured./die in this race. If you look at the normal statistics of the whole meeting, then "normally" it is 6 -8 horses who die during the meeting. I would be interested to see how these compare with other NH races?. I am by no means anti racing, prefer jump to flat racing and do enjoy it .

I don't agree that you can keep trying to compare chasing at this level to eventing. Eventing has had its (very well publicised) awful accidents and been/is trying to do something to make the sport safer. Can I also remind posters that for a horse to actually get to run around Badminton, it does have to have a proven record to be eligible. i.e I couldn't decide to run a novice horse around it. I know a lot has been done to try to make the GN safer without taking away the thrill but I would also go with the restriction of the field numbers. Any bright ideas about some sort of basic qualifications as well?

I am ashamed that I can't remember the name but the memory has stayed. Some 15 years or so, there was a stunning gray who was favourite to win, full page spread in the H&H the preceding week - I watched him being knocked into by another horse having just taken off over a fence and as a result land on his side with a broken neck.
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Prove those statistics - you are SO wrong........... :rolleyes:

Horses also have to be eligible for the National. Luckily, before you had a wee plan of bright ideas, they were currently in place.

It is so sad when horses die, but harking back to before changes were made, and applying that set of criteria to the race as it is today is disingenuous at best.
 
applecart14 said:
And horses run because they are herd animals and will therefore not be left behind. So they all run to keep up with each other like they would in the wild, safety in numbers, etc.
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Not slagging you off for your opinions, but I have a horse who for all he loves to race, won't go if he doesn't want to, whether 12 others horses have galloped away without him or not!
And last year King John's Castle wouldn't start, he is now retired in Ireland.
 
Also you are wrong. The horse you refer to was called Dark Ivy a grey who was favourite I think that year and he was killed at Beechers apparently because he over jumped and landed too steep on the then sloping backwards landing side and effectively landed on his neck from a full vertical position. that was the famous picture. It is also why the landing side was leveled off so please stop bleating about the lack of improvements on the course compared to event courses. I keep asking this but why is Daisy Dick not being given the same hard time for running her 18 year old at a one day event? She is no more cruel and heartless than the Mullins family who all adored Dooneys Gate. The double standard and hypocrasy of these threads is astonishing.
 
Baggybreeches said:
Not slagging you off for your opinions, but I have a horse who for all he loves to race, won't go if he doesn't want to, whether 12 others horses have galloped away without him or not!
And last year King John's Castle wouldn't start, he is now retired in Ireland.
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totally agree, there is always some who just hang back and dont care enough to join in. I own a dozen horses, often some of the younger ones start a bit of a stampede (just to keep me on my toes LOL!) anyway they will always be those that will join in the hooly at the drop of a pin and those that are happy to stand back and gaze at the display.
 
Sun said:
there's a sign right there that it is not me that is being a muppet tonight.

I know the difference of an animal with a big heart & and an animal who is running off instinct.
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Not from the bull you've posted on here, you don't. You have no idea about how much horses that do their jobs love their jobs. Or maybe you are too ignorant to understand them, or read them properly?
 
Re the buckets of water being thrown on the horses, I have been to many point to points and races where this has been done . Only a couple of weeks ago was at a pt to pt, again on an unseasonably warm day and a horse finished okay and then started staggering as it walked up to the unsaddling enclosure. It looked very scary but everyone acted very quickly, and within minutes, and after having several gallons of water thrown over him, the horse was absolutely fine and walked happily back to the stables. It initially looked far worse than Ballabriggs.
 
Okay, I went and found the qualification requirments for the National. Now, I'm not a racing person, so none of it makes much sense to me. Can someone translate?

For six-year-olds old and upwards which are allotted a rating of 110 or more by the BHA Head of Handicapping following a review of the horses entered and after taking account of races run up to and including February 13, 2011. Horses which are not qualified for a rating in Great Britain or Ireland at February 1, 2011, may also be entered. Such horses may be eligible for a weight providing the Handicapper is satisfied that the horse's racecourse performances to February 13, 2011, would merit a minimum rating of 110. To qualify horses must have run at least three times in Steeple Chases run under the Rules of Racing of the same Recognised Turf Authority up to and including February 13, 2011. At the Handicapper's discretion such horses may be allocated a rating. The decision of the BHA Head of Handicapping shall be final. No penalties after publication of the weights. Highest weight 11st 10lb. Maximum field size of 40.
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Looking at those pictures and seeing the race, I still believe that forty horses is simply too many for the course. I believe that the race could be made safer just by reducing the number of starters. 25-30 wouldn't be any less exciting, and would give them all a bit more room in front of the fences.
 
Caledonia said:
Not from the bull you've posted on here, you don't. You have no idea about how much horses that do their jobs love their jobs. Or maybe you are too ignorant to understand them, or read them properly?
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what ever you wish, if you cant answer without resorting to insulting me then I am really not interested in your opinions x
 
I don't follow racing, eventing, show jumping at all. We had a bit of a conflict in my house hold last night because everyone wanted to place a bet on the Grand National, bar me. My parents got all cross at me, but I asked them to respect that I didn't want to put money on something which I personally don't support, agree with or find enjoyable to watch.

Today I was out riding my horse, and he nearly got killed. He reared up because he was unsettled by something, I got off him to check he was okay (his saddle had slipped back), and he bolted home, through the woods and on the road. I've never run so fast in my life, so that I didn't lose sight of him. I was crying my eyes out. Even out hacking, there is the potential of a fatality.

Everyone in life dies; however, would you send your children to a play area where kids have been killed on it before? What does it matter though? I mean, everyone dies...silly me :p I think that, with respect to those who enjoy racing, that not all of us get enjoyment out of it. Okay so 'only 2 horses' died, but still, two horses which could of been spared a life? Perhaps? I think that banning these races is all well and good, and I'd support a ban, however, in all honesty, it's not so straight forward, so many horses would go to slaughter, so you'd have to stop breeding racers in the industry etc. It's easier said than done, unfortunately.


I think we should all respect that it isn't for everyone, as it isn't for me, and I don't think we could stop it.

Just for the record though, regarding eventing, when Spring Along died, I was quite upset, and this is a reason why I don't follow eventing, because I think it's a bit too much for me to handle, I'm a softie. However, I don't hate people who watch it, some of my best friends love eventing, but each to their own etc :)
 
Paddi (and others who have brought this up) - racing and the GN in particular HAS changed in an effort to make it safer. Just like eventing. And similarly neither sport has greatly improved its record since they introduced their changes.

The Gn used to have far more than 40runners. Also the race Peter was injured in had just 7 runners.
 
The 2nd bit I disliked was from that p**tt Richard Pitman ( only my opinion! ) when he was interviewing in the jockeys room after. He was talking to AP and then said something like the only downside to the race was when Robbie McNamaras saddle slipped and as a result he came off. I don't know the exact words. How insensitive a comment when 2 horses had died, I know some things get said without thinking, especially with the pressure of live TV I guess, but that really takes the biscuit.[/QUOTE]

I love NH racing but like the majority hate but expect some fallers,but found his comments very insensitive and innappropriate RIP both horses and condolenses to all connected with them
 
Racing is never going to be banned. It makes too much money for that to ever happen, and quite frankly, it would be an over-reaction. I do think that safety could be improved and that it should be.
 
I think those DM photos show what happened Dooneys Gate, he had a horrific fall himself, landed/got up facing the wrong way and Or Noir de Somoza fell on top of him.
 
zefragile said:
Frangible pins, pro logs, new flags? I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
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thats the biggest change they need, I see headlines just now on news "2 Horses Die, Ballabriggs Wins"

Maybe we will see a change for the better after this (ie welfare of the animals)
 
zefragile said:
Frangible pins, pro logs, new flags? I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
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Fence changes, chutes for loose horses, rule changes to allow horses to by pass a fence?

The numbers may make a difference, but they haven't previously.

I've been at all three of the events mentioned when two or more horses died. Where's that reported though?

Get it in perspective.
 
The flag incident was a complete freak accident, I know, I was there. Frangible pins have certainly stopped many falls from becoming fatal, but riders and horses are still being killed in rotational falls. I would certainly agree that less runners would be a step forward in terms of safety, but the fences are as safe as they can be. Interestingly, the largest fence on the course, the Chair, is jumped well by almost all the field, so the height of these fences is not an issue in my opinion.
 
The thing is in any sport there will always be the hardest challenge. Animal welfare people slate the Iditarod sled dog race as cruel....it's the same thing. I know for a fact that those dogs are not pets and ALL they want to do is run. A lot of my dogs are wired like that. I suspect to make it to the Grand National those Horses are the same.

I watched the race today and one of those that died I remember saying to my husband as soon as it fell 'that Horse is dead, you can see it's neck must be broken' and sure enough, on the next lap the screens were up. I did feel a bit sick but then ultimately no-one could ever force a Horse to run and jump. You do see racehorses refuse to start after all.

It's not right and it's not wrong. So long as the Horse has led a happy and well looked after life I don't see the problem. If people want to get up in arms go and put the energy towards campaigning for the likes of the Brooke, for equines in less developed countries who need water, shade, rest, food, vaccinated, wormed, tack that doesn't cause open sores and a bit of praise now and then. Something racehorses 'take for granted'.
 
Caledonia said:
Fence changes, chutes for loose horses, rule changes to allow horses to by pass a fence?

The numbers may make a difference, but they haven't previously.

I've been at all three of the events mentioned when two or more horses died. Where's that reported though?

Get it in perspective.
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I know that the GN has seen changes, I was pointing out the changes in eventing.
"Get it in perspective", is that aimed at me? :confused:
 
Yes was just going to say that about the chair. I think maybe they should return to the height they all were a few years ago but cut the numbers down to 30. It would still be a larger field than most (if not all) other races but considering that most years a good few horses are brought down rather than falling it may make a signifiant difference.
 
zefragile said:
I like the Grand National, would probably like it more if there were less horses in it.
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Exactly. These are my thoughts too.

I don't think there are any real problems with the course. It's meant to be a tough ride. But any minor mistakes are magnified because of the amount of horses trying to get over the jump.

I don't think they should ban the Grand National. They just need to cut down on the amount of runners down to around 25-30 at least.

Incidently, I've been struggling to find a name for my new foal. I found one today. He is now called Dooney in honour of Dooney's Gate who had that terrible fall.
 
The horses that are qualified are essentially any modestly decent chaser, with an official rating of 110 (as an example Kauto, Denman etc are 165-175) but the lower the rating the less likely the horse is to make the cut (ballot). With the GN being a handicap the lower a horses rating the less weight it carries, which is effectively making it easier for the lesser horses.
In real terms todays race was actually a pretty decent quality field with most horses being rated 140 and above (that I noticed, sorry if I am wrong but I was trying to read the racecard and work).
With reference to the ground (I do know the ground staff) after Red Marauders win in 2001? The racecourse invested in lots of drainage which effectively means that however much it rains and how ever much it gets watered the ground will always be good/soft, which results in much quicker times, and it is the pace that causes problems, lots of horses are perfectly capable of jumping round there in their own time, but if you have a horse making a quick time, it forces the slower horses into mistakes.
With respect to the argument about the amount of runners, if you went to a local p2p, you would maybe get 16 or 18 maidens in one race, all charging towards an 8m wide chase fence, in the GN you have 40 experienced horses coming at fences that are 18m wide, I know which I would feel safer doing.........
 
glenruby said:
Yes was just going to say that about the chair. I think maybe they should return to the height they all were a few years ago but cut the numbers down to 30. It would still be a larger field than most (if not all) other races but considering that most years a good few horses are brought down rather than falling it may make a signifiant difference.
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interesting thought, with speed such a huge contribution to these fatal falls, surely reducing the field and trying to discourage such fast starts as we saw today?
 
Baggybreeeches - I agree with the point re PTPs. IMO they are infinitely more dangerous. And you have the addd danger of inexperienced horses and often inexperienced jockeys too - certainly inexperienced when compared with the pros.


Sun - Bigger fences will slow them down a bit. I believe there was a race/course record time set last year or was it the one before? Most likely related to changes in fence heights and drainage in recent years most likely.
 
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glenruby said:
Baggybreeeches - I agree with the point re PTPs. IMO they are infinitely more dangerous. And you have the addd danger of inexperienced horses and often inexperienced jockeys too - certainly inexperienced when compared with the pros.


Sun - Bigger fences will slow them down a bit. I believe there was a race/course record time set last year or was it the one before? Most likely related to changes in fence heights and drainage in recent years most likely.
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it is sad to think that probably the changes they have made to date have quickened the race and made it even more dangerous, at one time the huge jumps were the be all and end all of this race.
 
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