Such a SAD day for so many fantastic horses ... The Grand National

Even if the numbers starting were to be reduced that at least would be something.. RIP brave horses indeed, but next time it could be someones Dad, brother, uncle,son, friend...

No matter how exhilarating, profitable a sport is, H&S should come first and in a H&S mad country, it baffles me still 40 people on horseback can jump a fence no longer than a semi! Surely halve that number...

It also is sad that a human or an animal can suffer a heart attack at any time and I guess that is life. I have changed my mind a bit during today... I don't think we should ban the GN or eventing or hunting... lets just make it that little bit safer for all concerned. Life is precious...
 
Caledonia is correct - those horses went off at long odds hence the "perhaps" in my post.

As regards the Luca Cumani posts from earlier. I have the utmost respect for the man, BUT I do think he has got that a bit wrong. Some of it is down to the difference between NH and flat racing, however I think it IS wrong that the horses are running out of fear. Racing DOES make use of the flight or fight instinct - but how many horses running out of fear prick their ears, listen to their rider and gallop on keenly? Anyone who has sat on a frightened bolting horse knows that they run with ears flat back or bewildered to the side, constantly flicking and twitching and have no regard for the riders wishes. If horses only ran with the pack out of fear it would be absolutely impossible to pull up a horse at the end of the races. So while Lc is right about the flight instinct I think he is very wrong about the running out of fear.
 
tallyho! said:
No matter how exhilarating, profitable a sport is, H&S should come first and in a H&S mad country, it baffles me still 40 people on horseback can jump a fence no longer than a semi! Surely halve that number...
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It surprises me there are a queue of brave/mental jump jockeys waiting to step into the injured's shoes. :confused: I get the enlisting in the army, fighting for Queen and country, facing danger for the greater good, blah, blah, blah, but choosing to risk your neck time and time again to steer horse after horse round race tracks so people can ooh and ahh and lose lots of money? :confused: :confused: I think jump jockeys missed the whole H & S wave that has engulfed the rest of the world.

ETA - I hope they are on very, very good money.
 
Regarding running on flight, my understanding of horse behaviour is that they are thought to run on flight for half a mile then slow and re asess. Unless under real and prolonged danger it makes no sense in survival terms to carry on running until you are exhausted. You need something to remain in the tank for future threats.

How any horse can be conditioned to work so intensively for 4 miles is beyond my understanding, so I am in awe that any achieve it at all. Being whipped excessively to win isnt my idea of something to write home about though, it seems unfair that the jockey is only penalised for future races. Controversial I know, but why shouldnt he be made to forefit the "ill gotten" win?
 
Regarding running on flight, my understanding of horse behaviour is that they are thought to run on flight for half a mile then slow and re asess. Unless under real and prolonged danger it makes no sense in survival terms to carry on running until you are exhausted. You need something to remain in the tank for future threats.

How any horse can be conditioned to work so intensively for 4 miles is beyond my understanding, so I am in awe that any achieve it at all. Being whipped excessively to win isnt my idea of something to write home about though, it seems unfair that the jockey is only penalised for future races. Controversial I know, but why shouldnt he be made to forefit the "ill gotten" win?
 
Ditto, an excellent statement.

One of the trainers involved in the National lost a horse at home last week, it broke its leg in the field, and had to wait for the vet to come and pts. Equally sad, but in his case help wasn't there in seconds, suspect it would have preferred to have had the accident on a racecourse somewhere.:(
I've just heard them going on again on the radio as to how exhaused Ballabriggs was, and how they had to "throw buckets of water ". FGS the last 2 pt 2 pt meetings I have been to have had that happen, why are they making such a big deal about it.
 
Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now. Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid. In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip abuse.
 
amymay said:
Just to put my two penneth in.

Enough now. Let's hope the authorities take a long hard look at the race and do some radical overhauling.

Less horses (maximum of 20), no handicapping, stricter qualifiying for horse and jockey and a look at the fences.

I like others get tremendously excited watching this race - but I really do feel that it is time to change things.

Oh, and the winning jockey - as devastating as it might be - should have the win taken off him I'm afraid. In my view you don't get the right to the win if you immediately have a race ban impossed on you for whip abuse.
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Agree with this ^^
 
Making the race shorter would make it faster... Buckets of water is standard procedure in any race run in hot weather - loads of buckets used at the p2p I was at yesterday - if they've any doubt on the horse it makes far more sense to get him into the shade of the stables rather than into a hot, crowded winners enclosure - none of the horses in the frame went into the enclosure.

As for the size, I thought the Chair jumped best of all, and that's the biggest - the jockeys respect it and jump it well. Open ditches also often jump well.

As for the numbers I've seen something that sounds similar to Dooney's Gate's injury in a 6 runner point to point (with a safety factor of 16 for Maidens 18 for experienced horses). The horse wasn't even on the rail on the shortest route, just near the middle of the course, running about 2nd of 6, so I'm not sure that reducing the field would necessarily solve the problem - horses generally do their utmost to avoid fallen humans or horses on the ground.

As for horses loving it - in one of the races at the point to point, one of the runners deposited his rider at the first, jumped around the next 2.5 circuits (despite opportunities to head for the box park/mounted stewards' horses) but preferred jumping with his new friends. It was his first race ever.
 
If we ban whips from racing, I want whips banned from all areas of equine sport. I've been stood at fences at 3* events where the horse has refused and has received 3 sharp smacks with the whip - why is that acceptable? It jumps about with the whites of its eyes showing but no one says anything. I've seen worse showjumping - how many of you have been behind the scenes at big events like HOYS? I have with the show ponies, and you wouldn't believe what goes on behind closed doors....but because you can't see it, that makes it ok and not worthy of an anti-racing style campaign? Even worse goes on at your average unaffiliated event. Racing recognises the possibilities of the whip, therefore has measures in place to prevent and punish its misuse - yet because they make this very public, people shout about whip abuse. No other events have such measures, so people ignore it and say nothing about the whip. It is only because racing is so aware and has punishments that people sit up and take notice about the whip. If my local unaff showjumping night had the same whip rules as racing, people would leave every single Wednesday night with a whip ban - and then people would start realising that the whip is overused and this is awful, we should ban it etc etc.

I read a thread the other day - some poster was leaving the forum because of nasty comments regarding her horse, because she ran it BE and received a caution from the stewards because it looked unfit and was puffing. How come it is acceptable to run your everyday horses, probably no where near fit enough, sometimes with questionably large riders aboard, cross country? If BE has to have people looking out for horses in distress - I've never seen this, but have read about a good number of cases of people getting a warning on this forum alone - then shouldn't that be looked at too?

Totilas is a very stunning horse. He spends all of his days locked up in his stable. It's a very plush one, but he's still locked up, taken out every so often to be put in a double bridle and made to do stuff which he never looks ecstatic about. But do the animal rights people shout about that? No. Animal Aid says nothing about that.

What Andy Stewart is saying, IMO, is that we know the risks. His son knew the risks by going snowboarding, and ended up being paralysed. It is a risk sport. Racing is a risk sport. All equine sports are a risk sport - horses get hit by cars out hacking on the roads, die in their lorries, die at indoor eventing, die team chasing, die hunting etc etc. You accept that risk, and if something happens, you mourn and then you pick yourself up and get over it. I can't believe the attitude shown by the public regarding racing - people saying they'd rather the jockey died than the horse. Get a grip. The young guy lying in hospital is someones son. If it was your kid lying in hospital, you'd damn well wish the horse had died too. "But horses don't have a choice" - yes they do. They don't have to race. I have horses who won't go in the horsebox with their friends. They are using their choice not to go in. Horses are not humans, they don't gallop down to the start thinking "Oh my god, I don't want to do this, but I don't have a choice, look at the size of those fences, I'm going to die a painful death." Every horse I see galloping down to the start of a race looks pretty enthusiastic to be out running, like most horses would be. If they don't want to, they won't do it.

In my opinion, if our Springs are going to get hotter, they'll need to move the National. You can't predict the weather, they didn't know it was going to be hot. But it was hot at the Beijing Olympics and no one said anything about them running the horses cross country - everyone KNEW they'd be finished exhausted, but everyone also knew they had good measures to cool them down. So did Aintree. The first thing the jockey did was jump off and start throwing water on the horse to cool it down and rehydrate it. Ala eventing.

Eventing has a higher death tally for humans than racing. I'm more concerned about that. Because like I say - I love horses. I really do. But I'd rather see a horse die than a human. And I think people need to get some perspective. People will say "But lots of horses die racing each year, not many humans die eventing!" Yeah, well lots of horses die each year in every horse sport. You just don't hear about it. Those who don't like racing should maybe spend a year going 'backstage' at big horse shows. Racing is on the tv, you see a lot of it. You don't see a lot of showjumping, or dressage, or showing. But there is a hell of a lot more to get your knickers in a twist about in those sports than there is in racing.

If you make the race shorter, they will go faster. If you make the jumps smaller, they will go faster. As they go faster, the risk increases. Ever watched a 2m hurdle? They go like the wind - and that's the shortest they can race, over the smallest obstacles. They made the fences smaller already, and it means they go faster.
 
badattitude said:
Also you are wrong. The horse you refer to was called Dark Ivy a grey who was favourite I think that year and he was killed at Beechers apparently because he over jumped and landed too steep on the then sloping backwards landing side and effectively landed on his neck from a full vertical position. that was the famous picture. It is also why the landing side was leveled off so please stop bleating about the lack of improvements on the course compared to event courses. I keep asking this but why is Daisy Dick not being given the same hard time for running her 18 year old at a one day event? She is no more cruel and heartless than the Mullins family who all adored Dooneys Gate. The double standard and hypocrasy of these threads is astonishing.
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Happy to stand corrected when I get my facts wrong. Now let me correct you about Daisy Dick. The horse died of a heart attack at an event which is a lot lower level than he had previously competed at. How do you work against a heart attack with a fit horse - what would you have done? and you can't say 18 is past it nowadays. There are a lot of horses still out and about, maybe not as full on as when they were younger but still doing a job they love. DD had already said how he was only going to run if he really felt up to it.

Also - I am NOT anti the GN. I am not "bleating" about the fences - simply asking what ways could this be made safer so smaller fields makes sense! and I am not that convinced about the qualifications - maybe the question should be raised - are these stringent enough. The GN is absolutely about the best of the best running - so what can you suggest to make this the fact. And as for the facts about 6 - 8 dying each aintree race meeting - well that came from a friend of mine, who is 100% passinonate about jump racing and has a share. I will dispute it with him then!

Just heard on the radio that a viewer had slowed down the race and counted the winning jockey hitting the horse 16 times between the last fence and the winning post. Glad he was banned - interesting that people have suggested he should have the race taken away. Will sit on the fence on that one.
 
well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again. Don't know which time I got it wrong. Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic. Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process. Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.
 
tess1 said:
well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again. Don't know which time I got it wrong. Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic. Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process. Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.
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Couldn't agree more. Just because something has always been done (driving horse to the point that poor animal reached with a whip) it's doesn't mean it's right. The winner was in a very sad state, his lad when interviewed at the stables was close to tears & not of joy by his face. Can you think of another animal sport where this would have been acceptable ? Imagine the uproar.
 
teagreen said:
If we ban whips from racing, I want whips banned from all areas of equine sport. I've been stood at fences at 3* events where the horse has refused and has received 3 sharp smacks with the whip - why is that acceptable? It jumps about with the whites of its eyes showing but no one says anything. I've seen worse showjumping - how many of you have been behind the scenes at big events like HOYS? I have with the show ponies, and you wouldn't believe what goes on behind closed doors....but because you can't see it, that makes it ok and not worthy of an anti-racing style campaign? Even worse goes on at your average unaffiliated event. Racing recognises the possibilities of the whip, therefore has measures in place to prevent and punish its misuse - yet because they make this very public, people shout about whip abuse. No other events have such measures, so people ignore it and say nothing about the whip. It is only because racing is so aware and has punishments that people sit up and take notice about the whip. If my local unaff showjumping night had the same whip rules as racing, people would leave every single Wednesday night with a whip ban - and then people would start realising that the whip is overused and this is awful, we should ban it etc etc.

I read a thread the other day - some poster was leaving the forum because of nasty comments regarding her horse, because she ran it BE and received a caution from the stewards because it looked unfit and was puffing. How come it is acceptable to run your everyday horses, probably no where near fit enough, sometimes with questionably large riders aboard, cross country? If BE has to have people looking out for horses in distress - I've never seen this, but have read about a good number of cases of people getting a warning on this forum alone - then shouldn't that be looked at too?

Totilas is a very stunning horse. He spends all of his days locked up in his stable. It's a very plush one, but he's still locked up, taken out every so often to be put in a double bridle and made to do stuff which he never looks ecstatic about. But do the animal rights people shout about that? No. Animal Aid says nothing about that.

What Andy Stewart is saying, IMO, is that we know the risks. His son knew the risks by going snowboarding, and ended up being paralysed. It is a risk sport. Racing is a risk sport. All equine sports are a risk sport - horses get hit by cars out hacking on the roads, die in their lorries, die at indoor eventing, die team chasing, die hunting etc etc. You accept that risk, and if something happens, you mourn and then you pick yourself up and get over it. I can't believe the attitude shown by the public regarding racing - people saying they'd rather the jockey died than the horse. Get a grip. The young guy lying in hospital is someones son. If it was your kid lying in hospital, you'd damn well wish the horse had died too. "But horses don't have a choice" - yes they do. They don't have to race. I have horses who won't go in the horsebox with their friends. They are using their choice not to go in. Horses are not humans, they don't gallop down to the start thinking "Oh my god, I don't want to do this, but I don't have a choice, look at the size of those fences, I'm going to die a painful death." Every horse I see galloping down to the start of a race looks pretty enthusiastic to be out running, like most horses would be. If they don't want to, they won't do it.

In my opinion, if our Springs are going to get hotter, they'll need to move the National. You can't predict the weather, they didn't know it was going to be hot. But it was hot at the Beijing Olympics and no one said anything about them running the horses cross country - everyone KNEW they'd be finished exhausted, but everyone also knew they had good measures to cool them down. So did Aintree. The first thing the jockey did was jump off and start throwing water on the horse to cool it down and rehydrate it. Ala eventing.

Eventing has a higher death tally for humans than racing. I'm more concerned about that. Because like I say - I love horses. I really do. But I'd rather see a horse die than a human. And I think people need to get some perspective. People will say "But lots of horses die racing each year, not many humans die eventing!" Yeah, well lots of horses die each year in every horse sport. You just don't hear about it. Those who don't like racing should maybe spend a year going 'backstage' at big horse shows. Racing is on the tv, you see a lot of it. You don't see a lot of showjumping, or dressage, or showing. But there is a hell of a lot more to get your knickers in a twist about in those sports than there is in racing.

If you make the race shorter, they will go faster. If you make the jumps smaller, they will go faster. As they go faster, the risk increases. Ever watched a 2m hurdle? They go like the wind - and that's the shortest they can race, over the smallest obstacles. They made the fences smaller already, and it means they go faster.
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If you see terrible things happening behind the scenes then you should report them & not turn a blind eye because by saying nothing you are condoning it
 
tess1 said:
well, just steeled myself to watch the vid on youtube, and counted 16 hits with the whip on first occasion, 17 on the second, and didn't want to watch it again. Don't know which time I got it wrong. Personally I think the jockey should be severly penalised for this - a five day ban is pathetic. Watching that, and seeing that horse stagger about at the end was pretty sickening to be honest - hard to talk about the 'glory' of this event when you see an animal trying his heart out and get a good beating in the process. Accidents are bad enough ... pushing a horse that hard and still walking away with the prize is pretty hard to stomach as far as I am concerned.
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As Tony McCoy once said when talking about being banned for overuse of the whip; "there are rules in place about overuse of the whip, rules are rules, they're there for a reason, but sometimes you over step them for whatever reason, but that happens in any walk of life, you learn from it."
When Jason Maguire was on the way to winning the Grand National for the first time (probably something he has been dreaming about since he was a wee child) I think adrenaline may have got the better of him.
I'm not saying this is a good enough excuse, I'm just saying I think a five-day ban is more than enough as he clearly didn't do it out of abuse.
Where as Eddie Ahern shouldn't even be allowed near a horse again after what he done to a horse called Marsam.
I think there is a big difference between whip abuse and overuse of the whip. After you've ran a cracking racing like Jason did, I don't think counting how many times he's used the whip in the last furlong is going to be on his mind. People make mistakes, and I'm pretty sure Jason will learn from this one.
I admit when I was watching it I thought he was whipping him with a bit too much force. But I don't think he deserves to have the race win taken away from him, Oscar Time, who came second wouldn't have won it whether Jason had a whip on Ballabriggs or not.
 
Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???
 
Echo Bravo said:
Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???
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Awful, wasn't he? Made me mad. I wanted to hear what Brough Scott had to say, but he couldn't say anything for that big idiot blathering on about nothing that was relevant.

POLLDARK - who do you propose I report Totilas not having any turnout to?
 
Echo Bravo said:
Look you lot are carping on. YOU didn't have to watch the Grand National nobody was forcing you too. We that love National Hunt Racing know you have fatalities nalso on the flat racing, also in real life, get a life please or just give up horses, stop watching the racing and just think about young Peter Otoole who is on life support. Watched The One Show for the first time tonight and last time, to see David Cassidy the big hypocrite, spouting on about American racing where the wastage of racehorses are very high, saying he thought jump racing was bad, hasn't he ever watched the Maryland Cup???
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What is the point that you're trying to make?

The two horses would have died if no-one had watched the race. It's not about who watches it. It's about the senseless carnage that happened on Sat. Yes, horses die. It happened on live TV- people are bound to be shocked.

Personally, I'm pretty disgusted by the whole thing- and I like NH racing.
 
teagreen said:
awful, wasn't he? Made me mad. I wanted to hear what brough scott had to say, but he couldn't say anything for that big idiot blathering on about nothing that was relevant.

Polldark - who do you propose i report totilas not having any turnout to?
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anyone & everyone who will listen ! The drip drip effect takes time but can be very effective
 
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