Sudden Winter Laminitis Surge - any ideas?

Sorry, I'm going to sounds hidiously thick now. I understand the bit about sugars in grass on bright sunny frosty mornings. The sugars are stored well down in the grass when it is frosty etc, when the sun is bright this encourages photosynthesis and the sugar shoots to the top of the leaf for growth - where the horse eats it so the horse eats sugary grass. But when it is not sunny and the frost doesn't melt all day - why are sugars still a problem, I would have thought the grass would have all but shut down by then, the sugars would be in the stem and low down to be preserved and the grass wont be growing. I would have thought there was a higher risk as people were feeding masses more haylege and hay (for example my hay is very good so my good doer can only have restricted amount otherwise he'll look like a hippo even in the depths of winter.).

I'm demonstrating my terrible lack of knowledge now - does anyone have any references about sugar levels in grass in various condidtions I could have a read of?
 
How is your horse doing Rose Folly? my horse has come down with it over a week ago, he has got it bad, he lives out, is lean and fit, i know how you are feeling, i personaly think its compacked snow in there feet,and the hard ground, next time it snows and freezes, im bringing him in at nights.
 
Walrus said:
Sorry, I'm going to sounds hidiously thick now. I understand the bit about sugars in grass on bright sunny frosty mornings. The sugars are stored well down in the grass when it is frosty etc, when the sun is bright this encourages photosynthesis and the sugar shoots to the top of the leaf for growth - where the horse eats it so the horse eats sugary grass. But when it is not sunny and the frost doesn't melt all day - why are sugars still a problem, I would have thought the grass would have all but shut down by then, the sugars would be in the stem and low down to be preserved and the grass wont be growing.
Click to expand...
Have a read of the articles on the link I put earlier. Photosynthesis...
grass makes food (sugars etc.) during the day and especially in sunlight. Night, grass uses food (sugars etc.) via respration. However grass cannot use sugars (respire) below certain temperatures. In cool season grasses this is arounf 4C. So grass is making sugars during the day but not using them at night in cold conditions so after a few sunny and frosty days and nights the sugar levels can be very high.
Any help? Some of the articles on the link are pretty heavy but it's worth sifting through them as there is much over lap.
 
I spent months researching a good food for the winter and settled on two products.

Forget hay altogeter if a good doer/prone to lammy

I use high fibre

http://www.horsehage.co.uk/HH-HighFibre.html

70% less sugar than hay!

http://www.horsehage.co.uk/analysis.html



and if you want a chaff to encourage chewing (8000 chews per kilo vs 1200 chews on concentrates) which encourages saliva and slowing down the passage of food through the gut the hoofkind is excellent to mix with the highfibre

http://www.horsehage.co.uk/MC-Hoofkind.html


the hoofkind mollichaff and high fibre horsehage is all you'll need.
 
amandap said:
Sadly you can't say 70% less than hay. It depends on the hay... how, when, where it was made etc. Some hay can be very low in sugars as well as high.
If you have to use hay it seems soaking is a good compromise for sensitive horses.
Click to expand...


i guess so on the exact figure - but either way its the same price as a bale local to me and does give low sugar without guessing what regalar hay could have. Also high in nutrients unlike soaked hay
 
I get very confused with the forage issue. I had a severe laminitic (metabolic, not overfeeding) and he did badly on grass but excellently on "top quality" new ley heavily fertilized ryegrass haylage (in theory, the least natural stuff you can feed). My Shetland has unlimited haylage overnight and unlimited access to frozen grass during the day,but so far, touch wood, not a sign of any problems. I had another metabolic horse who does great on haylage, can't touch grass and couldn't get enough calories out of soaked hay to cope with his workload. It's just a nightmare whichever way you look at controlling a horse with metabolic issues, isn't it? I hope this warmer spell is giving people a bit of a break.
 
I recently provoked an acute attack of laminitis in one of my ponies by switching her over to haylage. Not a commercially grown brand though, can't seem to get the likes of Marksway over here. The one I have used over here is seriously rocket fuel so daren't use that. :D
I think sugars are not the whole story though.
 
amandap said:
Have a read of the articles on the link I put earlier. Photosynthesis...
grass makes food (sugars etc.) during the day and especially in sunlight. Night, grass uses food (sugars etc.) via respration. However grass cannot use sugars (respire) below certain temperatures. In cool season grasses this is arounf 4C. So grass is making sugars during the day but not using them at night in cold conditions so after a few sunny and frosty days and nights the sugar levels can be very high.
Any help? Some of the articles on the link are pretty heavy but it's worth sifting through them as there is much over lap.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I'll have a shift through that info. I understand what you are saying and like I said I completely get the whole "bright frosty morning" danger. However my question was more whether such as recently when the frost has been thick and has stayed on the ground for about 2 weeks without moving. Will the grass still photosynthesise through thick frost on a dull day?
 
Walrus said:
However my question was more whether such as recently when the frost has been thick and has stayed on the ground for about 2 weeks without moving. Will the grass still photosynthesise through thick frost on a dull day?
Click to expand...
I believe so. Photosynthesis doesn't seem to be as affected by temperature as respiration. Kathryn Watts (on the link) states grass can photosynthesize under feet of snow on bright sunny days.

K.WAtts has a study on shady paddocks showing sugars are lower in shady areas but photosynthesis can still occur. I assumme it's the same on dull days and if sugars aren't being used overnight they will build up over the days just not as quickly as on sunny frosty periods.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks, Ameeyal. She's a little better today. My own vet has been, and is moderately pleased. As she can't have hay I've now put her on Horsehage, and feeding it in very small amounts 5 times per 24 hours - including a 1a.m. one! Sorry your has got it too. What a bummer this winter is being.
 
Rose Folly said:
Thanks, Ameeyal. She's a little better today. My own vet has been, and is moderately pleased. As she can't have hay I've now put her on Horsehage, and feeding it in very small amounts 5 times per 24 hours - including a 1a.m. one! Sorry your has got it too. What a bummer this winter is being.
Click to expand...


Which horsehage product did you get Rose?
 
laminitis causal factors are more complicated than sugar or overweight. As some posters have noted, even thin horses can get it.

Most barefooters will notice their horse getting a bit footy long before laminitis strikes too severely. This is one of the advantages of keeping a horse bare.

Some lami prone horses/ponies will manage ok on the 3% sugar or less haylage.

Many will not, because haylage is acidic and the hind gut needs to be neutral - moving toward alkaline as it gets further along. If the hind gut gets acidic then multiple problems can ensue, laminitis being one of them.

Regarding sugar, grass and frost. The reason frosted grass is high in sugar is that sugar is actually retained in the leaves when temperatures drop to freezing point, rather than going to storage. It is believed the sugar acts as an antifreeze to help prevent the leaves dying in the cold. Then a sunny afternoon will permit the grass to make even more sugar, which if the temperatures drop overnight are added to the existing sugar in the leaves. So over a period of several days of frosty mornings the grass can get really sugary. Apparently so long as light is reaching the grass, some species can still make sugar even when under snow. No wonder it is worth sugar addict horses digging for it.

My own horse and another under my wing both suffered when tried with the 3% haylage. One is a recovering lami and the other is lami prone, but currently fine (except when on the haylage - and then she was very poorly.)

These posts explain a bit about the problem I had with the haylage, a comment on the lami and the third one comments on hind gut acidosis.

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/problems-with-plumbing.html

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/11/hind-gut-acidosis-learn-to-love-your.html
 
Bad news for a friends horse today. Looks like he might have to be PTS as his pedal bones have dropped, and he is a massive 18.1 hh.....

Never had it in his life before, he is almost 20 and she has had him since he was a foal....

Sad days.... :(
 
amandap- how wrong you are, the RATE of photosynthesis is very dependent on temperature! (I believe that is GCSE level science!) However as has been stated, some of the sugars get trapped on the leaves when the temperature drops and when light/temps recover and photosynthesis resumes (and/or increases rate) the newly formed sugars are added to those previously formed. And so the vicious cycle continues...

There is a current theory about the effects of coniniuos exposure of the equine digit to extreme cold being a possible cause - but so far no scientific evidence has been found. All studies so far show that consitriction of the digital blood vessels is protective - however most of those studies say that laminitis can/could not be triggered (by any means) if the blood vessels are constricted. Now, we know the digit is very resistant to cold, but the above has been shown to be false - many of the current cases being experienced are in grass kept horses during periods of extremem cole temperatres - when surely the laminar blood vessels would be constricted...
Lamnitis is still very much misunderstood and I feel probably far more complex than many of us think. I agree though with whoever said that metabolic disorders are very very diffiult to manage - its often a case of damned if you do, damned if you dont!
For the record - saw between 15-20 cases of acute laminitis in December - only 2 of these were previous sufferers. My colleagues also saw about the same number betwee them.This is more than we saw in any other month of the 2010.
 
Hi CobSunshine. I'm using Marksway Horsehage which is readily available round here (NE Somerset). Both vets recommended it, and though it's quite pricey I can make it last 3-4 days by feeding her 2lb at a time spread over the 24 hours. PS Love your name. Wish my poor girl was CobSunshine at the moment (she normally is).
 
Rose Folly said:
Hi CobSunshine. I'm using Marksway Horsehage which is readily available round here (NE Somerset). Both vets recommended it, and though it's quite pricey I can make it last 3-4 days by feeding her 2lb at a time spread over the 24 hours. PS Love your name. Wish my poor girl was CobSunshine at the moment (she normally is).
Click to expand...

Yep that is the stuff that made my horse ill and made the lami go downhill.

Now would not feed it unless it was the only resort and then I'd take steps to reduce the acidity.
 
Rose Folly said:
Hi CobSunshine. I'm using Marksway Horsehage which is readily available round here (NE Somerset). Both vets recommended it, and though it's quite pricey I can make it last 3-4 days by feeding her 2lb at a time spread over the 24 hours. PS Love your name. Wish my poor girl was CobSunshine at the moment (she normally is).
Click to expand...


LucyPriory said:
Yep that is the stuff that made my horse ill and made the lami go downhill.

Now would not feed it unless it was the only resort and then I'd take steps to reduce the acidity.
Click to expand...




Which horsehage product? Marksway do a range of mollichaff and horsehage,

in the horsehage range there are x4 products - i use the "high fibre" horsehage :)

you can get Ryegrass, Timothy and Alfafa of which arn't as good for lammy prone.

http://www.horsehage.co.uk/HH-products.html
 
glenruby said:
amandap- how wrong you are, the RATE of photosynthesis is very dependent on temperature! (I believe that is GCSE level science!)
Click to expand...
This is what I wrote.
amandap said:
I believe so. Photosynthesis doesn't seem to be as affected by temperature as respiration.
Click to expand...
If photosynethesis was stopped completely by low temeratures there would be no sugars produced surely? It was a very long time since I did my O Levels though.
 
I stand corrected! Sorry, i didnt read your post properly. Yes, respiration is effectively stopped at 0degrees celcius for the average plant. the rate of photosynthesis at zero degrees is slightly greater and again effectively stopped at minus 10degrees for the average temperate climate plant. Basically at sub-zero temperatures there is more or less NO respiration or photosynthesis (but you are correct for LOW temperatures). For each 10degree increase in temps, the rate of photosynthesis is effectively doubled - this isnt so with the rate of respiration.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top