Sue Dyson - The 24 Behaviors of the Ridden Horse in Pain: Shifting the Paradigm of How We See Lameness

[Caol Ila]

I thought it was really interesting when they showed the videos of the horse before and after the nerve blocks, and how the whole expression and carriage of the horse changed dramatically.

How many horses do you see that appear sound, but have that tight, ears back expression when ridden, tilt their heads, or don't track up?

 

[Goldenstar]

Anyone with a not right horse should watch that .
I made me tearful
I thought it was going to PSD because of the history everything pointed to it
The owner was brave to put herself out there
That horse had not lacked veterinary intervention
Just a sad story all round

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I have been told in the past i am too quick with the vet when my horses show behaviour changes, and the vet always finds the reason why.

One of them i would have lost him if i had listened to the other liveries opinions that he was just testing me and being an idiot.

 

[Goldenstar]

You need to learn to trust your instincts without filtering out help from elsewhere thats useful that’s not always easy
But lots is simple saddles need to fit
Shoes must be well balanced and not left on to long
Horses need to move much more than many do ,they must not be too fat
Being too heavy is the biggest indicator for lameness

 

[Bellaboo18]

Just got round to watching this and glad I did. I'll admit I had a tear ot two; so many horses out there trying to talk to us aren't being listened to and that lovely mare really was shouting.

 

[splashgirl45]

I have just watched this and thought it was very interesting . Sue Dyson was very clear with her explanations. I felt sorry for the owner as she was quite young but had listened to her horse and had got vets advice all the way through, and I liked her response to Sue,s diagnosis, I really liked her attitude and am pleased that she is keeping the horse and not getting rid of her because she can’t do the job the owner wants. She seems like a nice person who has the best interests of her horse as a priority, and how brave to put herself in the firing line…

 

[AntiPuck]

Thank you for posting this, many of these signs I didn't know were pain indicators, as I'm so used to seeing them.

My horse started moving away from her saddle and bridle when being tacked up loose and that made it very clear to me that she wasn't happy, and after finding out her saddle didn't fit, and ditching it, and then taking her bitless (same bridle, adapted) after getting in a bit fitter and still seeing no improvement in her head shaking, jaw crossing, and tendency to run through the bit, she is a totally different horse to tack up, very chilled and pushes her nose into the bridle now. That taught me a big lesson, and I only hope I can notice any other signs she gives me.

 

[ycbm]

I am seriously beginning to think that cross ties for any reason except immediate safety are the work of the devil.
.

 

[Prancerpoos]

Very interesting, thanks for posting OP. Looking back, I feel guilty at all the horses that I have ridden in the past that showed similar behaviours and additionally guilty for listening to the people who would tell you to push the horse through it as the horse was just playing up.

 

[Birker2020]

Very interesting, thanks for posting OP. Looking back, I feel guilty at all the horses that I have ridden in the past that showed similar behaviours and additionally guilty for listening to the people who would tell you to push the horse through it as the horse was just playing up.

Yep, many people would 'push' a horse through but most owners want a one to one relationship with their horse based on mutual respect and that imho isn't being respectful to an animal if you are prepared to sacrifice its pain for your own enjoyment.

 

[Lady Jane]

I had read about the pain indicators before and watched the short YouTube clip that was out a while ago. This longer one is very interesting but it was sad she couldn't 'cure' anything, just inject to make the horse comfortable. I wonder if the first issue had been identified whether the other issues would have happened at all? The owner seems to have done all the right things, maybe the issues occured progressively together as she was jumping 1.30m courses. And of course it makes you wonder if your own horse is OK.

I had to retire an 7year old warmblood because all the work ups couldn't identify a particular issue. He was a perfect example of a horse displaying pain indicators but as he also had specific problems which were identified and resolved it made it very difficult to unravel. I remember saying when he was a 4 year old he was too quiet in the field for the type of horse he is. He is now 2 years into retirement and loves a good dance around!
If only they could talk

 

[Birker2020]

Wow I was really interested in the information about 24 minutes in about laying down fibrosis around suspensory branch injuries as this is what occurred with Bailey following getting caught up in the wheelbarrow. Fortunately she was able to free her leg and when I got there after work I was able to ice immediately which really helped but its interesting to know that fibrosis in this area is quite common. Very common for more than one branch to be affected too.

Interesting about sticking to your guns despite what everyone else in the barn says as you know your horse best.

Very interesting video, thanks for sharing. I've seen part of this video before but was under the impression you had to pay to watch it so I'm glad I've been able to see the whole thing.

 

[Alibear]

Interesting video, a journey I've been through so many times now. The sad thing is that is never fixable at that point, now I know this, I stop a lot earlier and just work on options for the horse's future.
I feel that stopping earlier and being more decisive cuts the stress for me and gives the horse a better outcome. Although I'm now up to 4 horses with 1 rideable
I did have to change vets to find one that supports this approach and I no longer insure. So far I haven't had to refuse treatment due to lack of insurance, when that day happens I may change my approach, you never really know.

 

[Tarragon]

Yes, a very interesting video. That poor horse was really not happy and making it obvious. You didn't need to be that educated to feel that there was something wrong! However, it could be that you would need professional help to work out what the cause of the behaviour was.
Because I am not competitive or have a particularly horsey agenda or high expectations, and own my ponies for the long term, I change what I do with my ponies depending on what they enjoy and are capable of at the time. I fully appreciate that if you want to hunt/Endurance/dressage/show jump etc. you might have a different approach.
Tricky. Back in the day, horses that couldn't/wouldn't do the job they were bought to do, would have basic treatment or be put down. Now, with all the advances in veterinary understanding and care, and insurance to cover the costs, people have the option of treating so much more. I haven't really been put to the test to work out what I would do if faced with this dilemma, so I cannot say what I would actually do.

 

[Hallo2012]

I am seriously beginning to think that cross ties for any reason except immediate safety are the work of the devil.
.

i cant watch the vid with sound at work, can you elaborate? only as one of mine doesnt X tie well (but straight ties better)

thanks!

 

[ycbm]

i cant watch the vid with sound at work, can you elaborate? only as one of mine doesnt X tie well (but straight ties better)

thanks!

The horse on the video is seriously unhappy at being groomed and even more unhappy at being tacked up. If she was loose, she wouldn't be allowing any of those things to happen, she'd just be walking away.

For a long time now I've groomed and tacked up loose, and every single time I've had a horse walk away from its tack, there's turned out to be an issue somewhere. Back/guts/neck/front feet....

My latest one was Ludo this summer. It turns out he was allergic to a feed used for thousands of horses around Europe, Agrobs Wiesencobs and probably had an almighty headache.

I think experienced owners like you who manage their own horses daily can probably read the faces of their horses and know what's going on. For the less experienced, I do sometimes wosh the horses could tell them more clearly when they were in trouble, by walking away.
.

 

[splashgirl45]

It would never occur to me to crosstie anything I was tacking up or grooming. I would only tie up if not in stable . I’m glad to say none of my horses have ever shown any discomfort when being tacked up so hope that means that I had done a good job with saddle fitting..

 

[Hallo2012]

The horse on the video is seriously unhappy at being groomed and even more unhappy at being tacked up. If she was loose, she wouldn't be allowing any of those things to happen, she'd just be walking away.

For a long time now I've groomed and tacked up loose, and every single time I've had a horse walk away from its tack, there's turned out to be an issue somewhere. Back/guts/neck/front feet....

My latest one was Ludo this summer. It turns out he was allergic to a feed used for thousands of horses around Europe, Agrobs Wiesencobs and probably had an almighty headache.

I think experienced owners like you who manage their own horses daily can probably read the faces of their horses and know what's going on. For the less experienced, I do sometimes wosh the horses could tell them more clearly when they were in trouble, by walking away.
.

ahhhhh- with you now!

i only tend to cross tie for plaiting,washing and foot trimming and by bad to tie i mean impatient, typical pawing and chewing the ropes and swinging side to side....... so i feel fairly happy as i can easily groom/tack up/trim hairy bits up etc loose in stable without my boys moving away.

thanks for clarifying

 

[sbloom]

Being too heavy is the biggest indicator for lameness

Are there statistics for that? I'd have thought compensatory movement patterns ie RSI would be the biggest indicator. And the journey I'm on with my work is showing that, counter to one or two points made on the thread, so often they are correctable and therefore the actual issue managed or even "fixed" by going this route. Not often a route that is part of vet rehab recommendations, and not even from physios on any scale.

Cross ties - usually very hard for a horse to be able to switch off it's underneck muscles completely.

 

[Fieldlife]

Are there statistics for that? I'd have thought compensatory movement patterns ie RSI would be the biggest indicator. And the journey I'm on with my work is showing that, counter to one or two points made on the thread, so often they are correctable and therefore the actual issue managed or even "fixed" by going this route. Not often a route that is part of vet rehab recommendations, and not even from physios on any scale.

Cross ties - usually very hard for a horse to be able to switch off it's underneck muscles completely.

Echo this. I think vets like Sue are often very black and white. Great at diagnosing lameness. But not so great at the potential rehabilitation possible if the whole horse is addressed and worked gymnastically by skilled people.

But it depends if you have the dedication, persistence. tools and skills to unpick and repattern movements and habits. And a bit of luck.

I’ve seen skilled people who address whole horse rehabilitate numerous horses written off, many by Sue Dyson.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Since working with a proper behaviourist with my horses and going to seminars etc I feel I'm developing a better "eye" for signs of discomfort and lameness etc but the one thing that struck me in the beginning of this video was that MY first thought, upon seeing the horse pin her ears and make faces, was ooooh typical mardy mare. Which quickly changed as I saw the other behaviours. But it made me think...how many mares are being ignored because people assume its just "mareish" behaviour..?? Would things have been picked up on more quickly had she been a gelding..??

 

[Peglo]

Thank you for the video @palo1. Really interesting watch.

 

[Polos Mum]

Since working with a proper behaviourist with my horses and going to seminars etc I feel I'm developing a better "eye" for signs of discomfort and lameness etc but the one thing that struck me in the beginning of this video was that MY first thought, upon seeing the horse pin her ears and make faces, was ooooh typical mardy mare. Which quickly changed as I saw the other behaviours. But it made me think...how many mares are being ignored because people assume its just "mareish" behaviour..?? Would things have been picked up on more quickly had she been a gelding..??

Maybe mares suffer more with seasons that we give them credit for - which is where the 'mareish' reputation comes from. Or from related female system problems in animals that don't ever the foals they were designed for.

 

[Goldenstar]

Echo this. I think vets like Sue are often very black and white. Great at diagnosing lameness. But not so great at the potential rehabilitation possible if the whole horse is addressed and worked gymnastically by skilled people.

But it depends if you have the dedication, persistence. tools and skills to unpick and repattern movements and habits. And a bit of luck.

I’ve seen skilled people who address whole horse rehabilitate numerous horses written off, many by Sue Dyson.

I can’t disagree with this post .
however lots of horses are put through loads of stuff with no good out come .
SD is very black and white because she’s a scientist and takes a statistic based approach .
I thought she was extremely fair in her assessment of the horse in the video she needed to become a hack about the place horse .
That what I would have done with her for a while .
The tragedy there is that the vets who saw the horse earlier on only did half a job and the damn saddle .

 

[Fieldlife]

I can’t disagree with this post .
however lots of horses are put through loads of stuff with no good out come .
SD is very black and white because she’s a scientist and takes a statistic based approach .
I thought she was extremely fair in her assessment of the horse in the video she needed to become a hack about the place horse .
That what I would have done with her for a while .
The tragedy there is that the vets who saw the horse earlier on only did half a job and the damn saddle .

I thought she was fair with this horse, and I am amazed and saddened that saddle fit checks didnt come before joint injections for the mare.
But most people dont have the skills / persistence / dedication to rehab a horse and change it's default posture and way of moving.

And yes many of us do too many things to desperately try and fix our broken horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

There’s nothing easy about being in this situation and heirs masses of people out there trying to persuade people that for example postural work can save a horse when it would have saved the horse at four not at 12 when the suspensories are shot

We also don’t know how many saddle checks the horse had had it might have had many.

 

[sbloom]

I would predict that there were saddle checks, I don't think there was an indication that there was not. However, it's a French close contact saddle which, forgive me, are "fitted" by reps who are more riders than saddle fitters, and IMO have trees that facilitate very few horses to truly move better. Sorry. So it was probably a typical "box ticking" exercise. Until a different saddle has been tried on the horse you can't declare a saddle having absolutely no part in a horse's issues, hence my comments when someone says "we've checked the saddle and it's fine". It just is never that simple where you have complex ongoing issues.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would predict that there were saddle checks, I don't think there was an indication that there was not. However, it's a French close contact saddle which, forgive me, are "fitted" by reps who are more riders than saddle fitters, and IMO have trees that facilitate very few horses to truly move better. Sorry. So it was probably a typical "box ticking" exercise. Until a different saddle has been tried on the horse you can't declare a saddle having absolutely no part in a horse's issues, hence my comments when someone says "we've checked the saddle and it's fine". It just is never that simple where you have complex ongoing issues.

I would not disagree with this .
These close fitting jump saddles although beloved by many riders are often not right for the individual horse .
I suspect Point pressure is the start of a long spiral of issues for many horses .
This owner was young at the start of her learning time with horses , you trust people to be right it takes time and sadly things like that before you look at horse and think chronic suspensory issues which is what guessed after watching its history.
these downward spirals can be slow and it’s difficult sometimes when you are with them every day .

 

[Zoeypxo]

Interesting watch. I may have missed it in the video but is there a reason a horse would have multiple Suspensory injuries? Bad luck or repetitive strain? Is it a common sj injury?

 

[Fieldlife]

Interesting watch. I may have missed it in the video but is there a reason a horse would have multiple Suspensory injuries? Bad luck or repetitive strain? Is it a common sj injury?

It’s usually caused by a compensation pattern set up when way horse moves is changed due to a primary pain source. The suspensories then get damaged by the compensatory movement pattern.