Suffolk runaway horse woman killed - charges being brought
- Thread starter lachlanandmarcus
- Start date
stacey_lou
Well-Known Member
As sad as it is we all Know with horses **** happens. It's awful so please don't think I'm being heartless but horses can spook and bolt sometimes for no reason so how can you prosecute?
Star_Chaser
Well-Known Member
It is tragic what happened but how can you possibly predict that was going to happen?
Potentially it also means that any event where a horse is present could be compromised by impossible insurance conditions.
Potentially it also means that any event where a horse is present could be compromised by impossible insurance conditions.
Rowreach
👀
I am making assumptions here, but it may have something to do with the horse's age and lack of experience in this instance.
lachlanandmarcus
Well-Known Member
I suspect they feel they can prosecute because of some of the circumstances: the event was foreseeably a crowded public event, the horse was less than 4 years old (!!!) and had according to witnesses been visibly agitated prior to the incident.
To me the age of the horse in itself would have rendered it unsuitable for an event like this, simply because it could not possibly have had time to acquire enough exposure to quieter and then progressively more busy situations, it was a youngster itself.
So I would hope it wouldnt mark a wider catch all for anything that happens but just a reflection of alleged failures in using common sense about what a juvenile horse would be able to cope with.
To me the age of the horse in itself would have rendered it unsuitable for an event like this, simply because it could not possibly have had time to acquire enough exposure to quieter and then progressively more busy situations, it was a youngster itself.
So I would hope it wouldnt mark a wider catch all for anything that happens but just a reflection of alleged failures in using common sense about what a juvenile horse would be able to cope with.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Correct!! And the horse was in the charge of a young woman with VERY little driving experience (two months), she'd been given no H&S training, the bridle had been removed (while horse still harnessed up) to give it hay!
It WAS an accident waiting to happen - and it did!
Superhot
Well-Known Member
All very nasty...
diamonddogs
Well-Known Member
My understanding of the law is shaky, to say the least, but the Coroner is a qualified lawyer, who had access to all the facts, and ruled it was an accident, so surely that's an end to it?
Source
I feel for the woman's family, really I do, but I don't see any benefit to anyone with this prosecution.
Source
I feel for the woman's family, really I do, but I don't see any benefit to anyone with this prosecution.
AmyMay
Situation normal
The horse in question (now dead) was brought over to the UK as part of a dealing group who imported horses from overseas under the guise of 'rescue', and was (if I remember correctly) only just 4 years old at the time of the incident. It was an extreme novice, in the hands of a novice - and was a terrible accident waiting to happen.
Nothing can bring back this poor woman, but I hope that the family will get some comfort from the fact that people are being held accountable.
Nothing can bring back this poor woman, but I hope that the family will get some comfort from the fact that people are being held accountable.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
The Coroner had some thoughts:
Because this accident happened in a public place - at a public event - where the owner of the horse/carriage was being paid to provide a service, it's a classic case where Health & Safety Assessments should have been carried out and all precautions against an accident should have been taken!
The HSE will have investigated ALL the facts and determined there had been a failure to meet H&S requirements! If there are serious breaches of H&S regulations that result in a nasty accident and the death of a bystander, of COURSE there should be a prosecution of those responsible. Otherwise there will be NO incentive for anyone to take H&S seriously!
diamonddogs
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that, Janet - it's clearer now! 
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what has happened. I wish them every success with the prosecution.
Sixteen Hands
Well-Known Member
I think it's worth remembering that The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) is prosecuting both St Edmundsbury Borough Council, which ran the fair, and the horse's owner Duncan Drye, of Bishops Road in Bury.
The prosecution would have be brought in line with the HSE's Enforcement Policy Statement
see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse41.pdf
supported by the framework of the HSE's Enforcement Management Model
see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/emm.pdf
There have been some very valid and useful comment made in this thread but given that the case is due before magistrates in Bury St Edmunds on 7 February may I suggest that we wait for the legal judgement rather than pre-judging the case ourselves? Maybe a discussion again after the outcome?
Neither the BBC or Bury Mercury who are both running the report are accepting any comments on the webpages.
The prosecution would have be brought in line with the HSE's Enforcement Policy Statement
see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse41.pdf
supported by the framework of the HSE's Enforcement Management Model
see: http://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/emm.pdf
There have been some very valid and useful comment made in this thread but given that the case is due before magistrates in Bury St Edmunds on 7 February may I suggest that we wait for the legal judgement rather than pre-judging the case ourselves? Maybe a discussion again after the outcome?
Neither the BBC or Bury Mercury who are both running the report are accepting any comments on the webpages.
FairyLights
Well-Known Member
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Honeylight
Well-Known Member
Why did the horse die? Was it injured in the accident or was it destroyed due to the killing of the lady?
LittleBlackMule
Well-Known Member
I suspect the latter.
After the bolting incident, the delightful character who shipped it over from France in the first place to make a quick ££ took it back and re-advertised it soon after as a 100% bombproof ride and drive!
People quickly cottoned on to this and the proverbial hit the fan, and the horse disappeared, the story being that it was 'put down for medical reasons'.
Rose Folly
Well-Known Member
I'd like to pick up on one point in JanetGeorge's post, which might be read to infer that H &S prosecutions only occur when someone is being paid to provide a service.
This is not the case. There's a duty of compliance even when a service is being provided by volunteers. This is why it is years since we did pony rides at our village Mayday celebrations. The ponies' services were donated by the people who owned them, and they or friends led them. But the H & S regulations were so stringent that we (the Committee) knew we could not abide by them, and so, very sadly, we had to stop doing the rides, and also trips in a pony and trap.
I hope that the owner of the horse and carriage did have public liability insurance; ditto the organisers of the event.
This is not the case. There's a duty of compliance even when a service is being provided by volunteers. This is why it is years since we did pony rides at our village Mayday celebrations. The ponies' services were donated by the people who owned them, and they or friends led them. But the H & S regulations were so stringent that we (the Committee) knew we could not abide by them, and so, very sadly, we had to stop doing the rides, and also trips in a pony and trap.
I hope that the owner of the horse and carriage did have public liability insurance; ditto the organisers of the event.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
Rose Folly is absolutely correct. All responsible voluntary organisations carry full liability insurance to cover themselves AND their volunteers!
Honeylight
Well-Known Member
I suspect the latter.
After the bolting incident, the delightful character who shipped it over from France in the first place to make a quick ££ took it back and re-advertised it soon after as a 100% bombproof ride and drive!
People quickly cottoned on to this and the proverbial hit the fan, and the horse disappeared, the story being that it was 'put down for medical reasons'.
Poor horse, this was hardly his fault.
Sixteen Hands
Well-Known Member
This is yet another very sad case of activities being curbed because of supposed "elf and safety". I wonder who set the stringent H&S regulations? Sadly over the years there has been misinterpretation about what is really required.
Did you have any serious incidents before you stopped doing them?
I'll stick my head out and say probably not. Why? Because you probably selected suitable ponies, did the rides in a suitable area and had competent people doing the leading. We used to do them at an event once a year and never had a problem. Oh and we found out if any events were happening in the main arena when it might be sensible to temporarily suspend the rides. The kids loved them.
There are not any H&S reasons to stop pony rides as long as the risks are correctly assessed and properly controlled. I'm guessing it was some jobsworth leading to risk aversion or fear of being sued.
Sorry if I'm on my high horse but I do get upset when I hear about worthwhile activities being stopped because of "H&S". A few years ago London lost the Harness Horse Parade - which had been run there for the last 150 years due to a dispute over the "risk assessment". What nonsense!
People have to be protected - yes - but often they can be by competent people assessing and controlling the risks associated with the activities. There is always an element of risk - we do not live in a risk free society - it's about minimising those risks.
You may be interested in some information given in presentation in about 2005 - Principles of Sensible Risk Management: http://www.hse.gov.uk/aboutus/speeches/tbrospacongress.pdf
In addition there was an independent review of health and safety legislation in in 2011 - "Reclaiming health and safety for all" by Professor Ragnar E Löfstedt who said in his opening remarks:
"Dear Minister,
In March 2011 you asked me to look into the scope for reducing the burden of health and safety regulation on business, whilst maintaining the progress that has been made in health and safety outcomes.
During the past six months I have sought views from a wide range of organisations, and have studied the available scientific literature to consider whether, on the basis of risk and evidence, health and safety regulations are appropriate or have gone too far.
I have concluded that, in general, there is no case for radically altering current health and safety legislation. The regulations place responsibilities primarily on those who create the risks, recognising that they are best placed to decide how to control them and allowing them to do so in a proportionate manner. There is a view across the board that the existing regulatory requirements are broadly right, and that regulation has a role to play in preventing injury and ill health in the workplace. Indeed, there is evidence to suggest that proportionate risk management can make good business sense.
Nonetheless, there are a number of factors that drive businesses to go beyond what the regulations require and beyond what is proportionate and I have made recommendations to tackle those which relate to regulations. These will enable businesses to reclaim ownership of the management of health and safety and see it as a vital part of their operation rather than an unnecessary and bureaucratic paperwork exercise."
The report makes encouraging reading and areas have already been actioned.
See:http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/lofstedt-report.pdf
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I don't think it was being run by particularly competent people as outlined above, hence the associated risks were neither assessed or controlled.
Superhot
Well-Known Member
Although the owner advertised the horse as 100% bomb proof, I believe it ultimately went to a good and kind home, not sure how, but subsequently died due to worm infestation... absolutely tragic...
Sixteen Hands
Well-Known Member
I don't think it was being run by particularly competent people as outlined above, hence the associated risks were neither assessed or controlled.
Just to let you know I wasn't being specific to this case - you may have missed my earlier comment:
"There have been some very valid and useful comment made in this thread but given that the case is due before magistrates in Bury St Edmunds on 7 February may I suggest that we wait for the legal judgement rather than pre-judging the case ourselves? Maybe a discussion again after the outcome?
Neither the BBC or Bury Mercury who are both running the report are accepting any comments on the webpages."
AmyMay
Situation normal
ester
Not slacking multitasking
sorry SH but I don't really see why that means it cannot be discussed at some level on here. It is for the most part old news anyway and has all been discussed previously on this site.
If TFC wishes to remove the post/ban discussion that is his call.
If TFC wishes to remove the post/ban discussion that is his call.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Urasio (though named Lucas at the time of the accident) was a 2008 foal and therefore only just 3 at the time of the accident.
Background for those who haven't been following the story
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/310036.html
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/389/311157.html
Background for those who haven't been following the story
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/310036.html
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/389/311157.html
poniesanddogs
Member
I believe this happened as the bridle was removed from the horse while still in carriage. The driving bridle is put on last and taken off first , anyone who has learnt the correct way would know this , sadly far too many people do not go through the correct lessons / training. Also horses get spooked , how many times do you see a loose horse at a show or event - add a carriage to the back of it and multiply the risks /danger. Society these days seems to have to blame someone , accidents do happen and no one goes out with the intention of having one , but standard rules should be followed. It is tragic what happened but horses are horses and when spooked take flight !
1stclassalan
Well-Known Member
This is a live case so BEWARE! Everything that 16Hands says is correct; however; here's my generic opinion.
So called Health & Safety people are a curse upon the Nations and they shall surely be consumed by the firey pit on the awful day of Judgement! Ironic, really when the Devil doesn't have any of the necessary certification and works with known dangerous substances such as fire and brimstone in close proximity to lost souls.
It is a fundamental and universally appreciated fact - and that includes all of us that love them - that horses are dangerous at both ends and can be uncomfortable in th middle. If it's a responsibility of folk taking horses near the public ( which I dispute ) to guarrantee 100% safety - then this must also imply that the same public who deliberately place themselves within range of horses - entering racecourses, horse shows, events and country fairs also has a share in something similar. If you buy an airline ticket you automatically sign up to the replacement for Warsaw Convention which is the absolute final arbiter in claims - buying any other form of ticket should do the same.
I may be in favour of some form of no-fault person insurance but not prosecution - it's only pandering to the kind of people attracted to this parasitic occupation.
The building industry is now completely hamstrung by this nonsense - it puts millions on the bill each year for hardly any benefit - I'm very glad that I no longer have to deal with the meally mouthed; jumped up; limp wristed little Hitlers that seem to thrive in these jobs. Though I must admit to having some fun with them - on a couple of occassions when running quite big jobs - H&SE were becoming a problem - instead of rubbing them up the wrong way, I asked them for assistance - "oh, we're very pleased, don't get that reaction usually when we turn up"...... but then I'd say "come and give me your opinion at the top of the tower crane!" Hahahah.... I only had one inspection for the whole contract.
So called Health & Safety people are a curse upon the Nations and they shall surely be consumed by the firey pit on the awful day of Judgement! Ironic, really when the Devil doesn't have any of the necessary certification and works with known dangerous substances such as fire and brimstone in close proximity to lost souls.
It is a fundamental and universally appreciated fact - and that includes all of us that love them - that horses are dangerous at both ends and can be uncomfortable in th middle. If it's a responsibility of folk taking horses near the public ( which I dispute ) to guarrantee 100% safety - then this must also imply that the same public who deliberately place themselves within range of horses - entering racecourses, horse shows, events and country fairs also has a share in something similar. If you buy an airline ticket you automatically sign up to the replacement for Warsaw Convention which is the absolute final arbiter in claims - buying any other form of ticket should do the same.
I may be in favour of some form of no-fault person insurance but not prosecution - it's only pandering to the kind of people attracted to this parasitic occupation.
The building industry is now completely hamstrung by this nonsense - it puts millions on the bill each year for hardly any benefit - I'm very glad that I no longer have to deal with the meally mouthed; jumped up; limp wristed little Hitlers that seem to thrive in these jobs. Though I must admit to having some fun with them - on a couple of occassions when running quite big jobs - H&SE were becoming a problem - instead of rubbing them up the wrong way, I asked them for assistance - "oh, we're very pleased, don't get that reaction usually when we turn up"...... but then I'd say "come and give me your opinion at the top of the tower crane!" Hahahah.... I only had one inspection for the whole contract.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I think your post Is a bit misleading you put the bridle on last and remove first of the harness BUT always after you have removed the carriage.
And you put the bridle on before the horse is put to the carriage.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
A comment on public liability insurance for carriage driving.
I have been insured for years with Carriage House for ride and drive but only if people ride in my carriage for free.
I wanted to help at a local fete but could not obtain insurance for a day for giving rides for charity. I would have had to take out a full year's insurance for an afternoon's work.
Insurer's said, if it is for a day the horse isn't used to the work. Actually THE horse now 34 was a musketeer's horse in Disney version of Three Musketeers and spent a week filming for a Julia Roberts film on location in central Edinburgh. When they re-shot the ending of this film he worked on the set at Pinewood Studios.
I could not insure him for a day.
I have been insured for years with Carriage House for ride and drive but only if people ride in my carriage for free.
I wanted to help at a local fete but could not obtain insurance for a day for giving rides for charity. I would have had to take out a full year's insurance for an afternoon's work.
Insurer's said, if it is for a day the horse isn't used to the work. Actually THE horse now 34 was a musketeer's horse in Disney version of Three Musketeers and spent a week filming for a Julia Roberts film on location in central Edinburgh. When they re-shot the ending of this film he worked on the set at Pinewood Studios.
I could not insure him for a day.