Suggestions for pony that tucks head between knees or into chest

M

musk

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
96
Visit site
Looking to see if anyone as any suggestions of what to try with our pony.
He will be sent away for schooling but I have to wait for a space so have approximately 2 months until this happens and I don't like the thought of doing nothing for 2 months.
Basically when the pony is asked to do more than a walk he tucks his head between his knees or right into his chest and goes round like that or broncs.
Have had everything checked - physio, teeth, saddle all been done.
Daughter has had many lessons with a coach but we don't seem to be getting anywhere with the kicking on and/or pulling his head up or anything else that has been suggested. Also does this with other riders.
Any suggestions would be welcome.
Ridden in a double jointed full cheek.

Thanks
 
You don't say how old the pony is or how long you have had him. This can be a learned evasion from using too strong bits or poor use of gadgets like draw reins. (I am not opposed to any training aid - in the right hands). Pulling his head up sounds counter effective - you're just trying force against him which doesn't work long term because they are stronger than their riders are - and kicking on will only make him buck.

If pony is still fairly young you might be able to re-back him and send him right back to the basics to learn to carry himself correctly and to accept the rider more. But if this habit has been set in stone for a while it could be extremely hard to break - especially if he is small so his equally small jockeys have little hope of being able to correct it. You could try things like balance reins or daisy reins - but only if there is no other option. Strapping him so he can't lower his head might make the bucking worse as he tries to object.

What happens on the lunge or long reining? Will he carry his head more normally? Is your daughter old enough to release her contact and see what happens? Will he soften and stretch down if you drop the contact? Sometime you have to out think them rather than force them.
 
Thanks for the reply.
He is still young (6) I suspect he was strapped up as a youngster but I am not a fan so would rather he worked in a natural outline rather than a false one. My daughter can give him rein/release the contact and take a very light contact but he will just put head right down and buck, she has a dressage instructor so she has tried doing things the proper way. He is too small for most adults to get on. I have never put a strong bit in his mouth - he came to us in a double jointed wilkie but I immediately swapped it out as it was too big for his mouth and I didn't want any poll pressure.
On the lunge he tends to throw his head around, up and down etc. He also falls out quite badly. I was wondering if perhaps he was used to his head being held in place and just doesn't have a clue what to do when it isn't strapped in and when he is only given a very light contact - could this be the case?
The other thing I wondered about is whether long reining would be useful in this instance? Or I am wondering if I should just let him rest for 2 months until he can be re-schooled.
Would it be fine to still hack him out in a walk in this time do you think or could this just make things worse? I don't want to make things worse?
 
musk said:
Had a fully qualified physiotherapist do a full assessment
Click to expand...

As someone who really rates my amazing physio, they cannot tell you definitely whether there is a problem with his back. No more than a Vet can without diagnostics.

How is he with the bit in his mouth? Happy/plays with the bit/opens his mouth/grind his teeth?
 
The vet can't find anything wrong with his back from their 'basic' checks - what sort of diagnostics would you recommend asking for? I would really love to get this sorted so happy to look into anything.
Regarding the bit he seems happy in walk and in trot if you are leading him with a rider on his back taking a contact (attach lead rein to nose band). Happy in walk off lead rein but in trot or canter off lead he just doesn't seem happy but can't tell what is causing it. When you take his bridle off he sometimes bites the bit with his front teeth and holds it for a while? Could this mean something? Wouldn't say he opens his mouth or anything while being ridden and doesn't appear to grind his teeth either. If he is standing still he plays with his bit.
It looks like tantrums when he is doing it but obviously he can't talk so I may be way off the mark and I hate the thought of him being uncomfortable too.
 
Mine can over bend if excited/nervous (but doesnt buck) I am using Cheltenham gag with 2 reins which seems to be helping. Spoke to instructor as he tucked in on the gallops, she said don't yank mouth/ head up but slap on shoulder on kick in ribs to knock him out of it but beware the reaction. He does it less and less and the 2 reins means i can ride off snaffle most of time!
 
The first thing I would do is check the bit, many small ponies are not able to take a double jointed bit, the joins end up on the bars and cause problems, I know they are supposed to be milder but I have had several that cannot cope with them and are far happier in a single jointed or straight/ mullen mouth, with something inclined to drop behind I would try a straight rubber bit or cambridge snaffle to encourage them to take a hold and be confident.
I would spend time doing lots of groundwork to build up trust and confidence, with a small pony some work with the bridle on and holding the reins where the rider would while walking alongside can be fairly easy to do in walk and trot or long rein being very careful to only take a light but consistent contact if you are skilled enough to do so, everything you do needs to be to encourage him to take the contact forward, to gain his confidence and for him to learn to relax, it sounds as if he may have been rushed, fixed in front and never had time to learn what he should be doing so he panics when it goes wrong, with patience he can get over it but he needs time to get over this.
 
Thank you for the advice everyone. It is really helpful. I will definitely send him for schooling right back to the basics. He does have a very small mouth so you could be spot on be positive in that it might be uncomfortable for him, I thought I was being kind with the double joint!! Will go with your suggestion and have a good look online tonight - do you have any suggestions of makes of the bits you have suggested that properly scale everything down to pony sized not just the width of the bit? I know Neue Schule do some good scaled down ones but if there are any cheaper alternatives that would be helpful.
 
This might be a stupid question but if the bit has been bothering him do you think I should give him a week or so off before putting the new bit in and then just taking it very slowly with the new bit? I will look at the bits in your link, thank you so much.
Also he does steer better in a full cheek but I can't see any cheapish full cheek ones so should I just give the full cheek a miss just now? (worried about solving one problem and creating another but they all look to be nearly £100)
 
Last edited:
musk said:
When you take his bridle off he sometimes bites the bit with his front teeth and holds it for a while? Could this mean something? Wouldn't say he opens his mouth or anything while being ridden and doesn't appear to grind his teeth either. If he is standing still he plays with his bit.
It looks like tantrums when he is doing it but obviously he can't talk so I may be way off the mark and I hate the thought of him being uncomfortable too.
Click to expand...

That is classic behaviour which shows that he is uncomfortable in his mouth
 
be positive said:
I would try the cambridge first, they scale down well or the nylon one further down on this link, both cheap enough to give you an idea if they help.

http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=228
Click to expand...

I also would recommend a cambridge snaffle they suit small sensitive mouths, I used on on my Arab who would not accept any kind of contact I literally tried everything until someone suggested this, he is much more confident now and I now manage to ride him in a jointed bit with a link and I show him in a myler Pelham.
 
Has he been a child's pony before you go him. He sounds totally uneducated.

Without wishing to sound rude, if you have to ask these questions then really you need help or things will get worse.

Ponies are very clever and easily sense inexperience in the rider and in the handler. We've got several here who have been total nightmares with their previous owners but with the right consistent approach they aren't any bother at all.

Did you contact Jo is that who is taking the pony?
 
Just going back briefly to your bitting question - if you speak to the bit bank you can hire bits for up to 30 days to check they are effective before you buy. That makes all the difference when you are contemplating the more expensive ones!
 
Yes he has been a child's pony before but he was originally used as a lead rein pony. When we got him he was being used off the lead rein and had done first ridden classes. I am not an inexperienced handler and my daughter is a competent rider but I do not have experience with this type of pony with these particular issues hence asking these questions - the coach is at a loss too and he is extremely experienced so I think he is a difficult case and I have been seeking help from quite a few sources.

I am going to try the bit suggestions with him as I feel it could be stemming from his bit, he has had his teeth done 2 months ago but I will get dentist out to have another look in case something is bothering him there.

Re the bitting issue - I had already spoken to the bit bank and taken their suggestion on a trial but it hasn't helped (they didn't suggest the bit that everyone on here is suggesting so I will go ahead and try that one)
 
I am not intending to go with Jo for the training, my friend is hoping to send her pony to her though so will be interested to see the results. (I need to check when she is going as that might change my mind if I see good results though before I send my pony away).
I have decided to give the pony a break for a couple of months and get his mouth rechecked then bring him back into work when he gets sent for schooling (will buy the suggested bit/bits to send with him)

Thank you everyone for your advice, it has been a great help.
 
Don't feel bad. Small pony issues are different from larger horse issues. Unless you have been there with them it is difficult to know what to do for the best. (Actually even when you have been there with them!...). They present different challenges because of their small riders. They are different to back / train / correct because of their size and my lord do they think differently!

Even at 6 ingrained bad habits are much harder to deal with when they are too small to be ridden by an adult. You are doing your absolute best to isolate what bothers him and that is to your credit. Its hard on your daughter too - especially if this is the only pony she has access to. I see this over and over again at PC - and did it myself with my daughter's ponies. Take heart - you are doing the best you can and this too shall pass!
 
Shay said:
Don't feel bad. Small pony issues are different from larger horse issues. Unless you have been there with them it is difficult to know what to do for the best. (Actually even when you have been there with them!...). They present different challenges because of their small riders. They are different to back / train / correct because of their size and my lord do they think differently!

Even at 6 ingrained bad habits are much harder to deal with when they are too small to be ridden by an adult. You are doing your absolute best to isolate what bothers him and that is to your credit. Its hard on your daughter too - especially if this is the only pony she has access to. I see this over and over again at PC - and did it myself with my daughter's ponies. Take heart - you are doing the best you can and this too shall pass!
Click to expand...

Thanks, determined to find out what is bugging him as I am not willing to put it down to naughtiness just yet. Fingers crossed the reschooling and new bits help.
Thank you for your support :)
 
I'm another who would recommend using a Cambridge snaffle, they are amazing bits for a lot of horses and ponies, very stable in the mouth and giving tongue space. And they are a very cheap experiment! However, if there is an underlying problem then you are probably looking at a full vet work up with proper diagnostics. Physios and chiros have their place, but they do not have xray vision :) I hope you find a solution soon.
 
Rowreach said:
I'm another who would recommend using a Cambridge snaffle, they are amazing bits for a lot of horses and ponies, very stable in the mouth and giving tongue space. And they are a very cheap experiment! However, if there is an underlying problem then you are probably looking at a full vet work up with proper diagnostics. Physios and chiros have their place, but they do not have xray vision :) I hope you find a solution soon.
Click to expand...

I agree with this, if I had a pony showing the behaviour described I would have a full veterinary work up before continuing to try and school him. Once you can rule out a medical/ pain reaction going on for certain you can go full steam ahead with the re-schooling.
Best of luck x
 
It was the third different EDT who mentioned my horse's wolf tooth. She has had her teeth done annually and had a number of vet checks for strange, ridden behaviour.
Keep plugging away. Good Luck with finding the issue.
 
Interesting comments about the teeth thanks. Have booked for them to be looked at again and will specifically ask for them to keep an eye out for wolf teeth - been great having the collective power of the people on here!! Thank you
 
Given that you're sending it away (which sounds like a good decision), I would spend the next 2 months making sure absolutely everything is right so that they money is well spent and whoever you send it to can then crack on in the knowledge that there is no underlying pain or discomfort. I know you say you've had it checked over already, maybe get some second opinions?

Riding wise, assuming it's safe and your daughter is happy, I'd be working on gently building muscle in the right places ready for the proper work to start later on with an experienced rider. I've always found horses that tuck their heads in are weak across their back and hindquarters and so (assuming it's not in pain), a lot of the work required is going to involve slowly rebuilding strength/ muscle. If it were me, I'd get it out hacking with lots of walk and do minimal school work. If you were keen to school it maybe you could try to keep the school work focussed on things like going over poles and doing things where you're not worrying about the contact but getting the pony to work straight, stepping under and starting to relax and lift its back? Obviously depends on how happy your daughter is to do this and how big a problem the bucking is.
 
itroteverywhere said:
Given that you're sending it away (which sounds like a good decision), I would spend the next 2 months making sure absolutely everything is right so that they money is well spent and whoever you send it to can then crack on in the knowledge that there is no underlying pain or discomfort. I know you say you've had it checked over already, maybe get some second opinions?

Riding wise, assuming it's safe and your daughter is happy, I'd be working on gently building muscle in the right places ready for the proper work to start later on with an experienced rider. I've always found horses that tuck their heads in are weak across their back and hindquarters and so (assuming it's not in pain), a lot of the work required is going to involve slowly rebuilding strength/ muscle. If it were me, I'd get it out hacking with lots of walk and do minimal school work. If you were keen to school it maybe you could try to keep the school work focussed on things like going over poles and doing things where you're not worrying about the contact but getting the pony to work straight, stepping under and starting to relax and lift its back? Obviously depends on how happy your daughter is to do this and how big a problem the bucking is.
Click to expand...

This is great advice thank you - I think it is worth getting some second opinions and if I get the all clear I will progress with some none ridden work using poles and then my daughter can do some hacking out in walk only and see how things go from there. I have also taken all the advice above on bits etc so fingers crossed we can get somewhere now :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top