Suggestions please wits end

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Neversaydie

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Just looking for some suggestions. No judgements please I won’t read them fully or respond.

My pony has decided that after all this time being wonderful that now is the time for being rude in groups of horses and tanking off with me. Doing it in the worst way of just jamming the head between the legs and off. No amount of yanking, one reining or sawing breaks it. Even doing it trotting just pulling me out of the saddle and down. Definitely excited and just want to do own thing.
Not bolting at all just not wanting to go at my pace. This is a recent development which is hurting me now. Hands were bleeding despite gloves the other day on a fun ride. If we are up front there is no issues however anything In front they we end up chasing.

Bitting doesn’t seem to work as had a gag type bit in and not a jot of care was given. Just put the head down and ignored. I’m thinking of trying either a lungie bungie clipped to the saddle rather than between the legs to keep the head up rather than encourage down or a set of grass reins just to try to break the behaviour. I tried everything in my tool box on that ride and it was like trying to stop a bus. It wasn’t fun.

Has anyone used these aids for this purpose as I have only used the bungie for rehab purposes (vet instructions when my last pony had a spinal issue years ago) I haven’t ever had to stop a horse or pony from this extent of snatching before. I’m not normally a fan of aids to be quite frank however I don’t even think a body builder would have held this. It was quite ridiculous. Thanks
 
Have you tried a bit with 2 reins? I used a NS Universal with a curb strap and 2 reins for a very strong Westphalian. I could ride on the snaffle rein most of the time and use the curb rein to reinforce good manners when necessary. I also found a PeeWee bit very effective for a Clydesdale after she took off with me after being frightened by a group of colts in a field at the side of the road. I lent that bit to an eventing friend who was having trouble turning her horse. It did the job perfectly.
 
Amymay Again said:
How big, what age?

My go too for an eager horse is a Kimblewick.
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14.3hh native type 10yrs old. Usually Very responsive and polite, normally ridden in a snaffle for everything but popped the gag type in as does get excited in company but nothing like this. I wasn’t afraid for myself as much as for them as I don’t want any injuries 😢
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Have you tried a bit with 2 reins? I used a NS Universal with a curb strap and 2 reins for a very strong Westphalian. I could ride on the snaffle rein most of the time and use the curb rein to reinforce good manners when necessary. I also found a PeeWee bit very effective for a Clydesdale after she took off with me after being frightened by a group of colts in a field at the side of the road. I lent that bit to an eventing friend who was having trouble turning her horse. It did the job perfectly.
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I haven’t maybe just a bIt hesitant as normally very polite and light in the mouth 😓
 
I had a huge heavyweight cob on loan for a while. She'd been a bit tricky for her owner at times and tanking off with her head down, ideally downhill was her party trick. I rode in a cheltenham gag with 2 reins. She only tried it once, realised I had the better of her and was pretty much a doll from then on, and the curb rein just sat on her neck and was rarely picked up. I still miss her and her over the top personality.
 
The pony I had as a teenager (14.2 New Forest) had a phase of very similar behaviour, fine in any situation apart from group hacking. I put him in an English hackamore for group hacks and after a few goes, he was back to his normal self. Be aware that in the case of my pony, when he couldn't go forward, he went upwards in almighty bucks the first few times, so please be careful of redirected energy if and when you find some brakes.
 
I often find this kind of thing is an accumulation over time that the rider just hasn't noticed in what is effectively training. You have probably let things slide that could have been picked up earlier and ended up in this sitaution. I used to hunt my mother's horse every now and again and it would drive me mad how rude he was. I would spend my whole day sorting him out and then the next time my mothers horse every would go out she would say how polite and nice he was.....

I would look at putting some discipline in - starting with hacking by yourself and then when in a group.
 
LEC said:
I often find this kind of thing is an accumulation over time that the rider just hasn't noticed in what is effectively training. You have probably let things slide that could have been picked up earlier and ended up in this sitaution. I used to hunt my mother's horse every now and again and it would drive me mad how rude he was. I would spend my whole day sorting him out and then the next time my mothers horse every would go out she would say how polite and nice he was.....

I would look at putting some discipline in - starting with hacking by yourself and then when in a group.
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He doesn’t do it when we hack alone which is 90% of the time. I’m only in groups at fun rides or lessons. He doesn’t do it during the lessons. He will ask for a stretch but he doesn’t always get it. He will try to snatch for food but doesn’t get that either. The thought did cross my mind that we do so much by ourselves that the amount of company is what’s causing it as well.
 
Pelham - with 2 reins!

My Ardennes was very rude when I first got him and came to me in a french link which was useless. A pelham with curb chain and he tried tucking his head in to bog off just once and I said NO very firmly and back he came. Very quickly got to the stage where the curb rein could be loose - but he knew it was there.

I also stopped a friend's shire x TB frok bogging off dangerously in a pelham. That one ran away with me and I only stopped him by crashing him into trees. We then walked up and down the track he had bogged off on until he was doing it nicely but I didn't go any faster until I'd put some brakes on him. He'd been taking the p with his owner for too long.

I wouldn't use the bungee or anything like that with yours because they can react and go up (& over) if their blood is up. Can you get out in company more often? To cure my youngest cob of his awful behaviour in company I did more of it - but with people who knew he was going to be excitable and were on horses that would ignore him. Plus we had hills - nothing like hills for knocking back the most enthusiastic native :-) Now riding in company is a bit exciting but not so overwhelming I'm debating my life choices.
 
My old boy was taught to do this by his older companion. He only ever did it in company and where the pace was obviously fast eg fun rides.
Once he got the idea he never went back, he wanted to race and win.
I was only young so I loved it.
I think once they get the notion they think it’s their job.
My sister rode him on a fun ride once and he behaved for her.
She was ultra firm with him and had words before the fun ride began.
Just posting to let you know this isn’t unusual.
 
Titchy Pony said:
The pony I had as a teenager (14.2 New Forest) had a phase of very similar behaviour, fine in any situation apart from group hacking. I put him in an English hackamore for group hacks and after a few goes, he was back to his normal self. Be aware that in the case of my pony, when he couldn't go forward, he went upwards in almighty bucks the first few times, so please be careful of redirected energy if and when you find some brakes.
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Absolutely this, all that energy has to go somewhere. Does he have much interaction with other horses? Maybe an insecurity thing if you've ruled out discomfort. I always go back to basics, very few horses in light work need supplementary feeding at this time of year. Other than that, rope in the services of one calm companion to hack with and start small while schooling.
 
SEL said:
Pelham - with 2 reins!

My Ardennes was very rude when I first got him and came to me in a french link which was useless. A pelham with curb chain and he tried tucking his head in to bog off just once and I said NO very firmly and back he came. Very quickly got to the stage where the curb rein could be loose - but he knew it was there.

I also stopped a friend's shire x TB frok bogging off dangerously in a pelham. That one ran away with me and I only stopped him by crashing him into trees. We then walked up and down the track he had bogged off on until he was doing it nicely but I didn't go any faster until I'd put some brakes on him. He'd been taking the p with his owner for too long.

I wouldn't use the bungee or anything like that with yours because they can react and go up (& over) if their blood is up. Can you get out in company more often? To cure my youngest cob of his awful behaviour in company I did more of it - but with people who knew he was going to be excitable and were on horses that would ignore him. Plus we had hills - nothing like hills for knocking back the most enthusiastic native :) Now riding in company is a bit exciting but not so overwhelming I'm debating my life choices.
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Agree. Sam Marsh Pelham: got some weight to it, nicely broad and flat with a ‘metal stop’ to prevent excess curb.
Ride on the bradoon rein with your curb in festoons most of the time, but use it as necessary!
Pony needs to know it’s there.
Seriously exciting, zipping around a strange area with a load of strange horses, he’s not likely to be listening to you unless you insist!
 
Neversaydie said:
He doesn’t do it when we hack alone which is 90% of the time. I’m only in groups at fun rides or lessons. He doesn’t do it during the lessons. He will ask for a stretch but he doesn’t always get it. He will try to snatch for food but doesn’t get that either. The thought did cross my mind that we do so much by ourselves that the amount of company is what’s causing it as well.
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It will be!
 
I have a box of bits somewhere, probably up the loft at the house, that I have collected over the years. Can have a look through and see what I have in there that will do. I want to solve this asap as it’s just plain bloody rude, I just don’t want a horse with a mouth like and iron bar after this. 😓
 
Neversaydie said:
I have a box of bits somewhere, probably up the loft at the house, that I have collected over the years. Can have a look through and see what I have in there that will do. I want to solve this asap as it’s just plain bloody rude, I just don’t want a horse with a mouth like and iron bar after this. 😓
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I merrily bit up as needed. When they get used to the exciting thing we drop down again. Has never, ever been an issue or affected their responsiveness to a milder bit. Horses with ‘hard’ mouths have pain in mouth or body, or a rider with harsh or unbalanced hands. The bit itself is just a tool. Use it to keep yourself and pony safe in an exciting situation - then change back to the normal bit for the rest of the time.
 
If his head is going down, I would second the recommendations for a Cheltenham gag with two reins. I'd also say, if he's able to unseat you/pull the reins through your hands, try bridging the reins before he throws his head down- this will mean he is pulling against himself, rather than you getting into a tug of war with an animal much stronger than you are!
It's also worth getting him sharper off your seat/legs when you're schooling/hacking alone, so that you have an extra set of tools to steer/slow him up when he gets a bit excited. Anything that strengthens your core will also help keep you stable in the saddle if he starts pulling as well.
If you mostly hack alone, he will find company much more exciting and will need to be taught to behave well in a group- I appreciate it's not always easy to find people to hack out with, but lots of practice in groups will make the whole thing less exciting, particularly if you can find people that want to do a lot of trot work and little/no fast work to start off with. I'd also recommend working him reasonably hard the day before any fun rides, so there's no freshness.
 
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Thanks all I’m going to have a look and see what I have lying about as I can’t have this behaviour. I know for a fact I don’t have a Cheltenham however I do have a Pelham and I think a tom thumb and I’m pretty sure I still have a kimblewick in there as well.
 
Curb bits (i.e. Pelham/Kimblewick etc) are unlikely to help you get his head up, as their action encourages the lowering of the head- if you are unable to borrow a gag you may find something like a Waterford snaffle will stop him leaning on the bit.
 
Just a thought re the Pelham. Whilst it’s been a good “ go to” bit for me in the past for brakes, I’ve found that the curb action encourages the nose down more and towards the chest. I found it better on horses that stuck their noses up in the air. As your boy defaults to head down to escape, I’m wondering if the Cheltenham might be a better choice? Don’t know much about gags though as never needed to use one.
 
Thanks again. Thing is I was looking at my bridle and I don’t think a Cheltenham gag is going to be doable to try. I use a micklem due to previous issue with bridles and tossing the head about. Since I moved to one it stopped. Is there a way of doing it with one that I’m perhaps being to stupid to see 😓
 
My instructor suggested a NS universal with a waterford mouthpiece for an ex racer who would rake and be impossible to stop after jumping.
I wasn't keen initially, but it saved my back and shoulders from being wrenched, and my hands. I gradually used it less and less because I didn't need to.
Eta you can also put the reins on the snaffle ring.
 
irishdraft said:
My previous hunter would run thru the bridle with most bits when out hunting but a Waterford gag and a back strap fixed the issue.
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Seconded. To pull they have to lean, they lean and you provide them with a convenient shelf with your fixed hand. (no criticism meant whatsoever, and having hunted a huge Welsh D I know all about a leaning horse, that little darling decanted me in a pond out hunting when he was leaning so hard he failed to corner successfully after charging through a sprout field !) it was an embarrassing moment.

The waterford is so mobile they find it hard to lean as you can keep the bit moving with a give and take. The back strap comes into play as needed.

Depending on how well your horse is schooled and how independent your seat/hand is, a double bridle with sliding cheek curb and wilkie bradoon could be an option. Ride him on the bradoon until he gets rude. There is nothing more tiring than a horse ragging you around but it takes two to pull which hurts both of you, so using a sharper bit is often the answer but the hand has to be forgiving or all you end up with is a brick mouthed rude horse.
 
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