Supervet....

[misst]

I think the cost is just the cost. I cannot afford a new car at the moment - it doesn't mean that no one should manufacture rolls royces.
I totally get the problem that it is heartbreaking to have treatment available that someone cannot afford. If my dog gets ill again then I will have to find the money as she has an exclusion now on her insurance. If it comes to 10K then we will have to PTS but that does not mean someone elses dog should not have the treatment. I do not believe Noel Fitzpatrick works entirely for money. He seems to have a fairly austere life and he runs a very expensive set up. It is not a charity and it needs to make a profit.

Most of us on here spend more than we can afford on our dogs and horses. I consider myself lucky to have had enough to enjoy both and a wonderful life with them. Not everyone can afford horses either and might wince at the cost. It doesn't mean I shouldn't have one.

Money honestly earned should be disposed of entirely as the owner wishes. It is no ones business but their own.

 

[Winters100]

My point was that I don't get how one can criticize a vet for offering procedures that are not be affordable to everyone, after all vet practices are all privately funded. Also the vets study for many years and SHOULD be able to earn a good living from their profession, if not how will they attract bright youngsters to the profession in the future? It always shocks me that there is so much discussion based around cost when if that amount was spent on other items no one would bat an eyelid. Plus I know many people that have funded surgeries for their dogs via loans, taking on extra jobs etc. Its not that it is easy for everyone but even if they struggle to pay it is their choice and they at least have the option if they want to save their pet.

 

[Winters100]

I think the cost is just the cost. I cannot afford a new car at the moment - it doesn't mean that no one should manufacture rolls royces.


Money honestly earned should be disposed of entirely as the owner wishes. It is no ones business but their own.

Agree! You would be amazed how many people tell me that I am absurd for spending this money on my dog even though for me it was the best money I ever spent!

 

[PucciNPoni]

My point was that I don't get how one can criticize a vet for offering procedures that are not be affordable to everyone, after all vet practices are all privately funded. Also the vets study for many years and SHOULD be able to earn a good living from their profession, if not how will they attract bright youngsters to the profession in the future? It always shocks me that there is so much discussion based around cost when if that amount was spent on other items no one would bat an eyelid. Plus I know many people that have funded surgeries for their dogs via loans, taking on extra jobs etc. Its not that it is easy for everyone but even if they struggle to pay it is their choice and they at least have the option if they want to save their pet.

oh, I agree wholeheartedly that vets work bloody hard to get their education and that their work comes at a high cost.

I think many people find spending that kind of money on a dog for surgery is a hard one to swallow. I sometimes find myself rather intrigued to hear that we have clients who will spend a few hundred on a guinea pig have a tumour removed which will have a very iffy outcome at best. I suppose it matters not the species or the size at the end of the day. But there are people who question this type of expenditure because it's well outside the current norm. Twelve years ago when I first started grooming, people seemed completely dumfounded that I could get paying customers to wash and trim a dog at a much higher price than what a man spends at a barber. In most cases I charge(d) more than the AVERAGE ladies wash and hair cut. And yet, I've made a decent living but worked very hard. I sometimes would get people slamming down the phone on my shouting abuse because I must not be a dog lover for the prices I charged. And now it's more the norm - lots of groomers everywhere, most of them charging more than pin money.

So I reckon this chatter about the money is much the same.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

To me it's not about money, if it needs doing you will find the money.

For me it's the personality of the dog. My three year old collie has HD and now we have found spondylitis in his spine through X-ray.
If he isn't settled on pain meds then he will get an MRI at the local vet hospital. My vet warned me they might try to push for surgery if they think they can fix it. If it came to surgery my dog would be put to sleep.

The reason?

He would not cope with any rehab, keeping still etc and most of all when he is in pain or feels vulnerable he resource guards to the point he picks fights with the other dogs. I do not think it us fair for him to be put through all that and I honesty think it would change us personality from fun loving to protecting and guarding him self.

 

[MurphysMinder]

There is an interesting report in the Veterinary Record on a discussion at the BSAVA congress entitled "We can - but should we?" . Included within it was a section on the impact of television. Hopefully at some point the link will be available on line, but I thought this bit was interesting:

" The stories selected for tv tend to be the "feel good" ones, but the fact was that many cases undergoing pioneering procedures did not have successful outcomes.
'We present these things on tv as "giant leaps for mankind" but actually the reality of research is incremental progress over decades' he said 'We have got to be careful as a profession that we don't keep presenting "giant leaps for mankind" '

 

[{97702}]

There is an interesting report in the Veterinary Record on a discussion at the BSAVA congress entitled "We can - but should we?" . Included within it was a section on the impact of television. Hopefully at some point the link will be available on line, but I thought this bit was interesting:

" The stories selected for tv tend to be the "feel good" ones, but the fact was that many cases undergoing pioneering procedures did not have successful outcomes.
'We present these things on tv as "giant leaps for mankind" but actually the reality of research is incremental progress over decades' he said 'We have got to be careful as a profession that we don't keep presenting "giant leaps for mankind" '

And that, for me, sums it all up exactly..... thanks MM

 

[PucciNPoni]

There is an interesting report in the Veterinary Record on a discussion at the BSAVA congress entitled "We can - but should we?" . Included within it was a section on the impact of television. Hopefully at some point the link will be available on line, but I thought this bit was interesting:

" The stories selected for tv tend to be the "feel good" ones, but the fact was that many cases undergoing pioneering procedures did not have successful outcomes.
'We present these things on tv as "giant leaps for mankind" but actually the reality of research is incremental progress over decades' he said 'We have got to be careful as a profession that we don't keep presenting "giant leaps for mankind" '

Thank you for that!

we all want to believe that they will all have miracle outcomes. But it doesn't always work that way.

 

[Fellewell]

I am pretty sure in this case the owners chose PTS as they didn't have the funds - Noel then offered to do the surgery for free and the owners agreed. Or was it a different case? I know of one that he did do for free as the dog had a really good prognosis and he didn't want money to be the sole reason that the dog didn't get a good chance at life.
I think he seems totally dedicated to his patients and I really enjoy the show.

I agree with you Ducky. The episode where he fell in love with the Golden Retriever owned by the older couple was lovely to see.
I've known some truly dreadful small animal vets who couldn't/wouldn't do what he does and just maintain the status quo. I'm afraid with regards to medical science, you still can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.
I'm glad people want to point the finger at breeders. The one who bred that GSD pup should have been named and shamed.

 

[AmyMay]

I'm glad people want to point the finger at breeders. The one who bred that GSD pup should have been named and shamed.

I'd love to see more (anything) made of this in the programme. I'd like for Noel to make a point of saying 'the reason this has happened is because of bad genetics' or such like. And then tell viewers how to avoid it.

As for the GSD pup, poor bloomin animal. Interesting that the woman went out and purchased a half sibling though. To say I was surprised is an understatement.

 

[MurphysMinder]

It has been widely reported amongst GSD folk that the breeder of that pup had in fact done everything right. Parents were hip scored and she had offered a replacement pup when that one first started showing problems, so maybe it was just one of those awful things that can happen.

 

[Fellewell]

I'd love to see more (anything) made of this in the programme. I'd like for Noel to make a point of saying 'the reason this has happened is because of bad genetics' or such like. And then tell viewers how to avoid it.

As for the GSD pup, poor bloomin animal. Interesting that the woman went out and purchased a half sibling though. To say I was surprised is an understatement.

There was an interesting expose on dog breeding on the BBC in 2008. Most notably on SM in Cavaliers. It aptly demonstrated the ability of supposedly 'knowledgable' breeders to willingly inflict untold pain and suffering on dogs they bred. It also demonstrated that the powers that be can do nothing about it.
Sadly Noel probably realises along with other caring vets that the most they can do is try and pick up the pieces.

 

[AmyMay]

It has been widely reported amongst GSD folk that the breeder of that pup had in fact done everything right. Parents were hip scored and she had offered a replacement pup when that one first started showing problems, so maybe it was just one of those awful things that can happen.

Thanks for that info MM.

 

[{97702}]

There was an interesting expose on dog breeding on the BBC in 2008. Most notably on SM in Cavaliers. It aptly demonstrated the ability of supposedly 'knowledgable' breeders to willingly inflict untold pain and suffering on dogs they bred. It also demonstrated that the powers that be can do nothing about it.
Sadly Noel probably realises along with other caring vets that the most they can do is try and pick up the pieces.

It was actually a "cleverly" edited programme that did not show the truth of what the CKCS breeders who were depicted had actually said. How do I know? Because I know the people involved...

 

[Fellewell]

It was actually a "cleverly" edited programme that did not show the truth of what the CKCS breeders who were depicted had actually said. How do I know? Because I know the people involved...

Regardless of what they said, irrefutable evidence has come to light since the programme was made.

 

[Fellewell]

It has been widely reported amongst GSD folk that the breeder of that pup had in fact done everything right. Parents were hip scored and she had offered a replacement pup when that one first started showing problems, so maybe it was just one of those awful things that can happen.

As I'm sure you know it's not just parents but grandparents, great-grandparents and any other litters from dam or sire. Even then it's not an exact science and big-boned pups need careful handling and feeding. But the biggest thing is genetic predisposition. I've owned/shown/worked this breed since 1963 before hip scoring. Knowing the lines is key IMO.

 

[{97702}]

Regardless of what they said, irrefutable evidence has come to light since the programme was made.

I was merely correcting your assumptions about the supposed attitudes of those depicted on the programme....

 

[MurphysMinder]

As I'm sure you know it's not just parents but grandparents, great-grandparents and any other litters from dam or sire. Even then it's not an exact science and big-boned pups need careful handling and feeding. But the biggest thing is genetic predisposition. I've owned/shown/worked this breed since 1963 before hip scoring. Knowing the lines is key IMO.

Yes, I am of course aware that it is more than just parents being scored. I was just making the point that this pup was not from a classic byb although I do not know how many generations were score., I too was involved with GSDs way before hip scoring (Certificates and Breeders letter came in mid 60s so there was some check although the fails could be anything from a score of 8). Knowing the lines is key, but there can still be anomalies from generations of good hips, as i know only too well.

 

[ester]

I thought it a shame that more wasn't said about that GSD pup, even if just to highlight it as a breed issue, or have him say do you know what the parents scores were/ensure you report this back to the breeder so they can avoid that cross again etc. They don't really seem to mention some issues being congenital at all.

At the end of the day it is tv program showing what can be done and some feel is right to do. I didn't watch the first series as I thought it was going to be a bit too extreme but have found this one interesting even if I don't always agree with the decisions.

 

[sam-b]

Personally, I couldn't put a price on my dogs life - thats why I have insurance, because if I had to have them pts as I couldn't spend the money, I would never sleep at night. For me, if there is a chance the animal will come right, why would you not take that chance - it's like telling a person with cancer that there are drugs that could cure them, but as the chance is small, we will let you die instead - is that right? A life is a life.

 

[ester]

It's not life at any price though, you cannot explain the concept of a long, potentially painful recovery to an animal like you can to a human.

 

[s4sugar]

It's not life at any price though, you cannot explain the concept of a long, potentially painful recovery to an animal like you can to a human.

Totally agree.

 

[ace33]

It's not life at any price though, you cannot explain the concept of a long, potentially painful recovery to an animal like you can to a human.

This. We spent near on £20k on one of our dogs only to have to make the decision to PTS at 6yo, she didn't understand the reason she was in near on constant pain, neither did our others dogs when they tried to play or bumped into her. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always fix it.

 

[Winters100]

This. We spent near on £20k on one of our dogs only to have to make the decision to PTS at 6yo, she didn't understand the reason she was in near on constant pain, neither did our others dogs when they tried to play or bumped into her. Unfortunately throwing money at a problem doesn't always fix it.

That is so sad that the treatment was not successful, but at least you tried. Sadly with many treatments some will be a huge life changing success and others not. If the risks and benefits were properly explained to you I am sure you would not resent giving your dog the chance.