Supplement for maintenance of ulcers??

[EmmaR]

Hello,

Well after my thread about trying to decide whether or not to get my horse scoped for ulcers I went with my gut feeling and decided to get it done.

So a very grumpy horsey after being starved for so long went off to horspital yesterday afternoon for a gastroscopy and he was a little bit naughty had to be sedated 3 times and have a twitch on the whole time!! Can’t say I blame him I wouldn’t fancy having it shoved up my nostril either!!

Turns out he has fairly severe ulcers, a few minor ones and a cluster of more severe well formed ones. He is on gastroguard for 5 weeks and then will need to go back for another scope to determine if any more treatment etc is needed. So glad i went with my gut instinct!

So getting to the point I would like to know what people give there horses who have suffered from ulcers as a daily maintenance once the treatment has finished?? As gastroguard is mega expensive to use long term!!

Also been told to put him on a high fibre diet, he is out 247 at the minute until around October and will then be coming in at night he gets ad lib hay and breakfast and dinner, what do you feed yours??

One last question if you went through your insurance did they pay out quite easily or was it difficult to get them to pay up for, as it’s a pretty expensive treatment...
Thanks Bovril on toast is all i have to offer i'm afraid!!!

 

[Tr0uble]

Welcome to the ulcer club!

I'm with NFU and in total they paid up £5000 of costs for ulcer treatment without a single query, that included the scoping, the GG, Bowen therapy, an aromatherapist, a behaviourist and lots of supplements! (hey, I knew it would be excluded so I wanted to make the most of the cover whilst I had it!)

Diet wise, high fibre is the way to go, be careful of haylage as it can trigger gut problems, but not always...depends on the horse. Avoid starchy, sugary molasses feeds completely. Alfalfa is good because the high calcium levels are good for neutralising stomach acid.

Oil is good as it helps coat the inside of the stomach to protect against acid....I think thicker oils like corn oil are supposed to be the best.

A good basic, and cheap, stomach supplement is brewers yeast, but there are some good specific ones (equine America is a good one) there Re also good herbs and oils...things like mint, marshmallow root, licourice etc.

If your horse needs a vet, let them know to avoid bute...go for pain relief like danilon or metacam, which are kinder on the stomach.

When you rise, you might be better to give your horse a section of hay, or a handful of chaff beforehand, this puts a layer of fibre in the stomach to help prevent acid splashing up during work.

Good luck!

 

[brighthair]

A friend used GG on her horse with ulcers and now maintains with feedmark ulcer calm

 

[WoodfordFox]

A yard-friend has just gone through all this with her horse. Talk to Debbie at Thunderbrook for long-term gut health. It's what I feed my gut-compromised ex-racehorse and my friend's horse is doing well on it too. Debbie makes a 'Gut Restore' product which I feed twice daily (my friends horse ironically doesn't need as much now his ulcers are better!) plus her whole approach is low sugar, low starch, and aimed at optimal gut health.

And yes, like Trouble says, it might feel weird but a little fibre-feed before you ride helps create a 'mat' over the stomach acid to stop it splashing, and if you're on a long ride let your horse have a little pick at some grass from time to time...

 

[EmmaR]

Thanks so much for the tips and advice I'm new to all this ulcer stuff! Some really useful stuff there. Quick question did any of you give them time off after the gastroscopy like a few days? Thanks again

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

My mare had a couple of days off after her scoping. I went for Ulcer calm from feedmark, and topped it up with Lethicin ~(makes the stomach acid go gloopy, there are papers on it) I get mine from here

http://www.puritanspride.co.uk/lecithin-cid-64/lecithin-granules-sku-001064.html

it has really made a differnce for my mare, she is now better than ever, oil is always good for them, she has been clear from ulcers for 6 months now.

 

[Tr0uble]

I did, but my boy was pretty much unrideable (turns out the ulcers were a secondary condition to azoturia though) and also had a rough time with scoping, he's a delicate little flower and had a bad nosebleed from it!

 

[EmmaR]

Yea he had a pretty rough time too and has been very quiet today is that normal? Eating etc fine just seems very quiet and subdued. He is very sensitive as well!

Thanks everyone think ill look into getting the feedmark one, Lui23456 what are those Lecithin granules how much of that do you feed?

Did you only start feeding the supplements after they had finished the gastro guard treatment? sorry about the 20 questions just want to make sure i do the best for him to make him as comfortable as possible

 

[Tr0uble]

No I got him on to them ASAP

 

[SpottedCat]

There's not a lot of point in feeding ulcer supplements during GG treatment as GG is a proton pump inhibitor which stops the stomach producing acid - which is why it is the only thing which works to cure them (as opposed to simply improving the clinical symptoms) - it sometimes needs to be used alongside antibiotics too.

I used settlex until feedmark made ulcercalm FEI legal, and will now switch on to ulcer calm. I also feed Pure Feed Company feeds, which are just brilliant for horses that have had ulcers.

 

[glenruby]

We usually advise using the simple feed systems for seriously affected horses. However, constant access to forage and regular turnout are probably the most important factors in prevention. In the States, most of the best known colic surgeons are now advising the use of Assure Guards (made by Arenus). Unfortunately it is not yet available here but having recently spoken to Dr Altman and read some of the research material it seems to be on the right track. Also I do know some of these surgeons are convince they are seeing results - espciall in post colic surgery horses.

It may be worth getting some ranitidine/cimetidin/sucralfate for your medicine box to use if/when you anticipate stress (such as if he gets confined to his box in winter). Not nearly as effective as Gastroguard (and function differently) but cheaper and may be sufficietas apreventative. While your insurance is still goin, it might be worth getting some exra GG for he same reaon - it is usually given at the dose rate of 1/2tube for 500kg horse as a preventitve during stress periods.

Also, generally bute causes right dorsal colitis/ulcers as opposed to stomach ulcers and Danilon is Suxabutazone a precursor of phenylbuazone so no "gentler" on the stomach/gut.

Which practice are you using?

 

[SpottedCat]

Glenruby has the advice changed then? Because 1/4 tube of GG was what I was advised as a preventative measure during stress periods, and it's the rate at which UlcerGard in the USA has omaprazole in - or at least used to - because it is over the counter there, so people buy a tube of UG rather than using 1/4 tube of GG.

You'll have read papers by the vet I got my advice from, he did a lot of the clinical research in the USA, particularly into the supplement formerly known as neigh-lox

 

[skint1]

My friend and I have been giving our wind sucking TB mares ranitidine over the last couple of weeks to see if it makes any difference. Neither have been scoped but we just thought we'd try and see if it worked, as yet it hasn't helped with the wind sucking but they're both pretty mellow right now

 

[glenruby]

This was the rate used by a referral hospital I worked at in the States and another I saw practice at over there. In the UK, my clients could not afford to keep a horse on Gasroguard as a preventative so havnt used it here. Bearing in mind that most of the horses they would be usingit on wouldbe under a huge amount of physical/metabolic stress. Now that you mention it I do know of a few on the lower dose you mention as a preventative but when staying at shows (which can involve 6weeks of "overnighting") - they went on a half sringe dose. Research in the area of gastric ulceration (or more correctly prevention) is still very much a work in progress.

Yep - I have read that research.

 

[SpottedCat]

I guess it's a different thing in this country then as we rarely do such long 'overnighting', hence the advice I was given, which was 1/4 tube daily starting 4 days before you go away and continuing until you get back.

 

[glenruby]

Yes exactly. Plus most US competition stables have little or no turnout and littl or no grazing for those that are actually turned out so they have a different risk level altogether. Thats why they keep their horses on it at home for the whole compteition season. Im sure for the majority of UK horses a 1/4 dose would be more than sufficient.

 

[SpottedCat]

We don't travel nearly as far either, which must also have an impact I think. Also, the types of feed available over there are completely different, and when I was there it seemed to be the norm that everything was fed differing amounts of the same feed. You should have a look at Pure Feed Company (pure easy/pure working specifically) - I swapped on to it because it was so much easier and cheaper than the balancer/alfalfa-oatstraw chaff etc I was feeding before. I think it is probably as good as Simple Systems and possibly better in terms of the quantities you have to buy in!

 

[EmmaR]

Arrgghh there are so many different remedys out there its so confusing! That's a good idea about getting extra gg whilst still under the insurance. I'm just using a local practice to me that do have great facilities.

Before I had him scoped he was actually on or still is on coligone powder is this worth carrying on with? Or do you think the other supplements are better

 

[glenruby]

IMO, Coligone has obviously done little or nothing to prevent him getting ulcers. If you have been using it because of colic issues then there may be reason to continue but for ulcers I wouldnt bother in your case. Id try spottedCat's advice about trying the Pure Feeding Company and ask your vet for further advice about prevention. All the vet practices in your area are very good so Im sure your vet will be able to discuss it with you and work out a feeding program to suit you.

 

[SpottedCat]

The reason I feed Feedmark is that the only supplement on which clinical research has been done is the one that used to be called neigh-lox. It is also, much like GG, akin to powdered gold in terms of cost (I love my horse but there isn't a lot of point in having him and only being able to afford to feed him and not compete him, and if he's not competing, he probably won't get ulcers ). Settlex had all the same ingredients in as neigh-lox, bar one I think, and I used it under the close watch of one of the vets who did the clinical research on neigh-lox. He was impressed enough to take down the details as it is so so much cheaper. Then research came out showing that pectins can help with ulcer prevention, and Feedmark started making ulcer calm which has slightly different ingredients to settlex, and includes pectin. Unfortunately, their initial formulation included meadowsweet, which breaks down to one of the metabolites of aspirin - so is not FEI legal - so you couldn't use it in competition horses. They've now removed the meadowsweet, and so once I have finished the current tub of settlex, he'll go on to ulcer calm.

I've evented him (or rather he has been evented ) for a couple of years now up to intermediate with no recurrence of the ulcers using the feedmark supplements. He looks amazing on the Pure Feed Company feeds - best I have ever seen him, just fabulous.

 

[EmmaR]

He has never had any colic issues i put him on it to help with his gut function as he always would suffer with diarrhea and had a gut infection last winter so put him on the coligone, which yes as you have pointed out clearly didnt help prevent them didnt think of that!

I have done the free diet plan on the pure feed company and explained about the ulcers so will hopefully get a response and order there feed from now on Will also chat to my vet regarding a suitable feeding programme

Think i will ditch the coligone then and buy the feedmarks ulcer calm - they also do some good deals if i buy a huge tub always a bonus!

I use towcester vets do you know them glenruby?

 

[glenruby]

Yes, assumed thats who you used. Excellent vets!

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

I feed the lethicin at about 25g twice a day, about half a ulcer calm scoop, each tub from the link I gave u lasts about a month so great value! My mare went to nixons and saw the specialist who wanted her on pronutrin however she wouldn't eat it and it's too expensive so ulcer calm topped up with lethicin to 10% is very similar, I started the supplements as I was lowering the dose of the gg, I'm getting some extra gg for long journeys and over night stays and any change in routine!

 

[DoubleB]

Having read all the threads re gastric ulcers I thought I should tell my story..
Back in March I suspected my horse had ulcers as I could not get weight on him and his irrational behaviour in exitable situations. Low and behold he had them. Vet said 1month of GG that would get rid of them.(he is not insured) In the meantime I did my homework changed his diet onto Simple Systems he already had access to 24/7 grass or hay. 6 weeks later had him rescoped, I was gutted, they were worse Vet advised he should always be on GG!! I could not afford this neither did I feel this wa,s the right thing to do so I got a second opinion. The first thing the vet said to me was we have to find out the cause which made sense to me and to cut a long story short after being checked from head to toe it turned out to be his teeth even though they had been checked 2 months prior!. They were so sharp the sides of his mouth were ulcerated and the vet said basically he could not chew and digest his food properley hence ulcers. This made me feel dreadfull as I always get my horses teeth done every 6 months.(what dentists can you trust but thats another story) Anyway his teeth were done and I have since carried on with his cereal and sugar free diet with Simple Systems along with herbal remedies of slippery elm bark powder to help heal the stomach lining and chamomile flowers which is a natural calmer to help stop over exitement and excess acid production.He has put on weight and is looking better and better as time goes on, he is eating more and there are no moments of standing in the corner of the stable while his stomach hurts he goes straight to munching hay after his feed now when he is in at night.SS feeds can be a bit of a drag but you soon get into it and there is no shortage of energy for his job (he events) I have not had him re-scoped yet and I am sure we are not completely out of the wars yet but I feel we are on the way. Always interested in any helpfull advise

 

[EmmaR]

Hmmm thats interesting DoubleB thanks for your story, its interesting because i have my horses teeth done every 6 months as they were in poor condition when i bought him and every time i have them done at 6 months they ask when they were last done and when i say every 6 months they are shocked!


My vet does my horses teeth so surely they cant blame each other!!

Does get me thinking as my horse is a very slow eater and eats his feeds as if he has real problems with his teeth even though i religiously get them done he also really struggles to eat carrots and apples unless there cut up!!

 

[PeggyPatch]

Coming from some one who has had a horse with ulcers and suffers from them herself....I used to feed my horse (and I eat it myself) live yoghurt, to help bacteria balance in the gut. I used to mix it in with the feed and although at first she used to chuck it around she soon got used to eating it. This is something that was both recommended to me by my vet at the time and by my gastroenterologist.

I know it may sound silly but if you can try to cut stress down. My mare was very stressy which i'm sure didn't help with the problem.

 

[DoubleB]

Dentists are not easy but maybe it would not hurt to get a second opinion. Whether it be right or wrong i am now using a dentist that and also trained does not use power tools unless absolutely necessary in UK. It is still early days with my horse to know whether I have got to the bottom of the problem but I do know he is improving.
I understand what you mean re yoghurt but at this stage I feel it is best for my horse to have what is natural to his gut.

 

[SpottedCat]

DoubleB I take it your vet has discussed the possibility of the ulcers being caused by a bacterial infection? My horse's splash ulcers responded well to GG but like your horse the glandular ones lower in the stomach got worse not better over the first month and he also needed antibiotics. I have to confess to not really understanding the teeth thing - if we swallow something a bit less well chewed, it doesn't pass through us undigested/partially digested and I'd really like to understand how horses are different - is it easy to explain?

 

[DoubleB]

No spotted cat he didnt. My second opinion vet also advised that GG was just an antibiotic. I realise that there are different antibiotics for different things. My dentist also advised that he could have permenent worm damage as he found that very common in ex racers. A vet friend advised the best treatment was to turn him out 24/7 and take all sugar and cereal from his feed which I have done anyway. Who do you believe. The equestrian world is full of very expensive supplements all claiming they can combat ulcers.I hate to sound pessemistic but like many others I am sure when you have spent a huge amount of money and got knowhere it is difficult to trust anyyone. I am not sure about the teeth thing but I do know he is eating better or could it be change of diet? I am having him rescoped when I bring him in at night so I am able to control feed intake.

 

[SpottedCat]

Ok, I think you're either getting some duff advice or getting mixed up (sorry, that sounds hatefully rude, I don't mean it to!).

GG is not an antibiotic. It is a proton-pump inhibitor which essentially stops the stomach from producing acid, thereby giving ulcers a chance to heal. All the supplements on the market are essentially antacids - so whilst they will raise the pH of the stomach, they won't remove the causatory factor so there is no evidence they can 'cure' ulcers. They can (and do) play a role in preventing recurrence though.

24/7 turnout, no cereals in the feed and removing sugars is good management, especially of a horse which has had ulcers, but the problem is, my horse was already managed like that, and contracted them anyway - through bacterial infection (this is a common and well-known causatory factor in humans, and is extrapolated to horses rather than being proven - but the treatment definitely works so....). He needed a course of antibiotics, and simultaneously was on GG, antepsin tablets (these bind to the surface of the ulcer and so reduce the pain) and pepto bismol. The other issue with splash ulcers is the type and availability of forage. I have a very long PM explaining all this if you're interested?