Surely this isn't right..... :(

Hjpia said:
I think you've answered your own question with the nature article and no doubt your PhD will facilitate this further. Im afraid I didn't read the whole paper and I'm on call today so unlikely to don't before tomorrow but my point was and still is that this is a extra gait and that extra gaits have been found to be genetically linked. Some are a mutation (paper) some unknown. This paso fino gait is specific to the breed; it can be performed by no other breed of horse whereas, yes passage is an exaggerated normal gait that many breeds of horse can do both naturally and through training and instruction.
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So you aren't seeing it as either good or bad? just stating fact?- yet you compare it to big lick. Essentially as a naturally occurring mutation so long as these horses could still run away from predators as fast I don't see the issue, even more so given that all of the horses we ride are products of such changes as Rara highlights.

The paper didn't answer my question, I already knew about it and had read it previously, I was asking you, personally, how it had formed your opinion given that you suggested that we could link paso finos to a discussion on fainting goats/it is equivalent to big lick (ie soring, huge padded shoes, etc etc).

Ps, Ester, no H. I'm a sad geek as it comes from one of my main study bacteria!
 
Here's a rather more user friendly non-sciency article which people might find interesting.
I'm not denigrating the breed or the mutation or anything controversial! It is very interesting to me that this gait can result from a mutation. I initially postulated that it might be a mutation then the hostile responses had me more curious as to why people seem to associate mutations with only negative things. Anyway the paso finos display the 'gait keeper' mutation in almost 100% of cases. (Now what's fascinating about that is the 'almost' but I'll spare you as this could get really boring)

Here's for anyone who is interested...

http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...ontributed-spread-genetic-mutation-horses.htm
 
It is also worth noting that hipparion, (3.5 million years ago) had a running walk, maybe the human selection has therefore occurred the other way, and that we have mostly selected for non gaited animals. . .and that nature kept it's options open ;).
 
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Hjpia said:
Here's a rather more user friendly non-sciency article which people might find interesting.
I'm not denigrating the breed or the mutation or anything controversial! It is very interesting to me that this gait can result from a mutation. I initially postulated that it might be a mutation then the hostile responses had me more curious as to why people seem to associate mutations with only negative things. Anyway the paso finos display the 'gait keeper' mutation in almost 100% of cases. (Now what's fascinating about that is the 'almost' but I'll spare you as this could get really boring)

Here's for anyone who is interested...

http://www.natureworldnews.com/arti...ontributed-spread-genetic-mutation-horses.htm
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So why did you say it was like big lick?
 
God almighty - no I don't think it's bad or good. I already apologised for giving the big lick comment a nod - it was more a recognition that it too looked rather unnatural. Yes big lick training is very nasty and bad.

My response by looking into the genetics was actually in response to another poster who thought the mutation question unhelpful...
A horses gait, a fainting goat - they're all stereotypic behaviours resulting from a mutation. That's the link. It was the goats that made me wonder whether this gait is similarly inherited. It is. I'm done.

P.S I'm sorry I spelt your name wrong.
 
ester said:
It is also worth noting that hipparion, (3.5 million years ago) had a running walk, maybe the human selection has therefore occurred the other way, and that we have mostly selected for non gaited animals. . .and that nature kept it's options open ;).
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In the UK it has happened that way, that selection happened for none gaited animals at a time when the demand was for trotting horses for driving, rather than the palfeys for riding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palfrey
 
I said I thought that mutation terminology might be unhelpful because it risks being used in an unscientific way on a board such as this and that these horses might start being thought of as 'mutants', where it is clear some posters seemed to be appalled that this exists at all. It is only due to a mutation on the basis that pretty much all phenotypic traits are the result of a genetic mutation, it just happens to be a particularly interesting one because it appears to be linked to a single mutation. I presumed given the comparison to fainting goats (pretty unhelpful if you are being chased!) that both were deemed bad whereas I see different paces in horses, so long as speed is maintained not a bad thing and quite likely evolutionary helpful if it reduces the amount of energy needed to travel at speed.

Fwiw fainting goats are not caused by a single mutation, nor is the disorder in humans.
 
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Quite so.
And just to be clear, at no point was it my intention to suggest that these magnificent and majestic creatures were synonymous with an unconscious goat.

I apologise unreservedly if this was how my comment was understood.

If I knew how to post a smiley - this would be where Id put it -->
 
mungasmum said:
Yawn..... Am I the only person who found this thread became rather tedious when others started to 'out-intellectualise' each other?
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Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.
 
I'm always a bit suspicious of artificial extremes, and liking of extreme traits in animals, because of where that can potentially lead. Even the desire for athletic extremes has this risk (witness doping scandals). I also feel the love of extremes is a bit unhealthy but also recognize it is an entirely normal part of human nature.

That said, I don't think that the Paso Fino gait (like other gaits) is considered by anyone to be a welfare concern, right?, so it's nothing like Big Lick. As far as I know there are no associated health issues, as there are e.g. around some purebred dog breeds. So I'm pretty relaxed about Paso Finos, and although I personally don't see the attraction of such extreme collection, it's not my business to dictate what other people like as long as no harm is done.

And I do like the idea of breeding for friendliness and biddability (in moderation!).
 
cobgoblin said:
Nope - I always lose interest when people start stating their qualifications. Besides which I'm now really taken with the idea of a red saddle.
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I only did to point out that she didn't need to spend ages explaining genetics to me after the it's just science comment and to try and get her to understand my question, which we got to in the end! As I genuinely couldn't understand the links and connections that the examples were supposed to be making. Sorry!

Anyway I have concluded that 'different' gaits are probably as old as the 'normal' ones so can't see the cruelty.
 
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Just wanted to point out that all "natural" traits are ultimately the result of mutation... Fainting goats (btw this is an adaptive trait), ambling gaits, coat colour or human hair colour... A "mutation" is how all genetic variation comes about and they are heritable. It's a completely moot point to state this as a characteristic of a trait!
 
Barnacle said:
It's a completely moot point to state this as a characteristic of a trait!
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I like you.

I guess the point is whether we were responsible for it's propagation or more natural selection.

I didn't realise it was adaptive (other than them being easier to keep in! :D)
 
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