Switcheroony - have I been given the right advice...?

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Witchity Bug

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Hi Guys,

About switching to raw feeding...... As ever with anything involving dogs or horses there is tonnes of conflicting advice out there. I just wanted to check that our plan of action is feasible...so here goes.

Two dogs, both jack russells, both with conditions that make them prime candidates for raw feeding. One little girl with undiagnosed 'digestive' issues including inflammation of the stomach, intestines and colon and another boy with itchy skin. They've both been fed Orijen, Acana and Canagan for the last two years.

The girl had a bout of 'gut issues' when she was a pup that has been under control for the last 18 months after a period of trial and error to find a food that agreed with her. About 5 weeks ago she started with a runny nose and listlessness which turned to full on colitis style symptoms after a couple of days including distended intestines, vomiting, diarrhoea and general gut discomfort. The vet diagnosed a virus with the colitis as an unfortunate unrelated issue. After 5 weeks she is still being poorly off and on. In this time we've been to the vets four times and she has been prescribed antacids, antibiotics and now steriods. She was only ever fed three things - Canagan biscuits, Feelwell Probiotic treats and rawhide chews. We've gradually been removing each from her diet in an attempt to see what is triggering her reaction and we've finally removed everything including the biscuits and been feeding her scrambled egg and best cod fillet. She's been fine on this for the last couple of days but it obviously wont be good for her long term.

So, we've decided to make the leap to raw. We've found a local supplier of Nutriment and Natural Instinct but they have recommended that we dont make the change straight away as our girl's stomach might be a bit too weak after being so ill and that the antibiotics and steriods might make her vulnerable to nasties. They've suggested feeding her little and often on white fish, turkey, scrambled egg, boiled and crushed egg shells and live goats yoghurt - is this ok to be feeding her? They said that after a week or so, and when she is off the steriods, that I could start introducing some liver and kidney and just reduce the amount of time we spend coooking it. Should we consider going against the vets advice and taking her off the steriods and antibiotics sooner?

Our little guy has always been itchy all over his body from being a pup. He doesnt have red or scaly skin but he has had a couple of bad flare ups in his ears for which we've got topical steriod treatments from the vets. However, he has now been given a three week course of steroid tablets. I'm just a bit worried about all the steriods going into my dogs! Shall I ditch them for him too and start him on the transition diet like our girl?

AAAAAaaaaaaahhhh! My head hurts, I just want what's best for my dogs!
 
Hi, I was hoping someone with far more knowledge would give you some answers , I will give you my story. I have a 10.6 year old Westie. He came to us with campalbacterium as a pup and ended going to Cambridge vet school.

He recovered then over the years he has had stomach issues, of bloating, wind, sickness and incredibly noisy tum when he has a flair up. These have become slowly more frequent over the years but still manageable, until a couple of years ago he had a really bad flair up and we had to go to the emergency vet in the middle of the night.

He was put on long term steroids but he could only stay on them for a short time as they gave him a stomach ulcer, so they where immediately stopped. So I did some research and found that an antibiotic called metrodizonale(sp), percifically for gut problems is very good so he went on a three month course twice aday, with tramodol twice aday to stop any pain before it started to give the guts a rest.

We tried raw he would not eat it, and I couldn't let him starve until he would has he has to eat little and often. So he has burns weight control as a lot of these sort of gut problems require low fat, it is left to soak and I am lucky as I work from home and he has eight small meals aday. His skin is also good on it, hu used to be very itchy. He has NO other food at all nothing.

He does have the odd flare up about once a month, but as we were nearly everyday and I was considering PTS that's fine, and I can honestly say he is five years younger.

When he has a flare up he has junior calpol as recommended by my vet,she went to a lecture and apparently it is very good for the use of gut pain in dogs. Only under the supervision of a vet. He has irratable bowel disease they all come under the same umbrella.

I haven't answered you're question re raw but I have given you my story. I know he won't make old bones with what he has but at the moment he is the best he has been for years.

Mine had a scan five years ago and his stomach was quite thickened, he had one a year ago and it was normal so that's good, also a lot of these dogs bloods will also show signs of pancreatic disease and they need a low fat diet, which is why the burns weight control is good low fat.

I am sure if you can do raw that is best, as I am sure people will analyse what my dog is on and it will be carconagenic and all sorts but when you're back is up against a wall you do what you can, otherwise I really was heading down the PTS route. Good luck, steroids are awful if you can get him off them then that can only be good.
 
Hi 5bs,

Thanks for your reply. Your dog sounds very lucky to have such a dedicated owner. You've obviously gone to great lengths to make him more comfortable. It sounds like he is suffering from exactly the same thing as our dog - the noises her tummy makes are unbelievable!

I probably haven't had more replies because my post was a bit long and rambling with no clear questions asked! It helped me though to get it all off my chest! I guess I just wanted some reassurance that we're doing the right thing after a month of worry and not getting it right. We love our dogs so much, I can't stand the idea of them suffering and not being able to do anything about it.

She seemed fine last night after her evening meal but then she started breathing quite fast, then she started panting abd she's been weeing more. I also think she's a bit dehydrated. Maybe another trip to the vet this morning. Oh god the worry!
 
When I bought my raw raised pups, I swapped my 10 year old, kibble fed samoyed over pretty quickly - not saying thats the best way, but he took to it really well. I did have to chop up carcasses for him as he struggled to chew them up, but he soon learned.

I feed all of mine the same (my breeder is, luckily, one of the top experts on raw feeding); They hace chicken carcasses, fish (salmon, pilchards etc - tinned tuna has a lot of salt in so I avoid), live natural yoghurt, cottage cheese, raw eggs plus shells, bones (not weight bearing bones of large herbivors as they are too tough), juiced raw veggies. The juicing (or freezing if you prefer) breaks the cellulose walls so dogs can digest them. I don't feed tomatoes, potatoes, onions, grapes, mushrooms, but do give lots of leafy veggies, peppers, parsnips, carrots, and try to mix above and below ground veggies fairly evenly. They love fruit - oranges, apples (remove pips), banana and melons are faves!

They also get lots of offal, liver and muscle meat from pigs, and lamb - beef contains few nutrients so I only give for a treat.

Once you find suppliers (my local butcher gives me loads for free, as does my fishmonger), and get into a routine - it's easy.

A friend has just changed her dogs to raw, and after a lifetime of sore, itchy skin, her little terrier is looking and feeling fab!
 
Hi again, whatever you feed your dog he will need small and often meals, they can't take the big amount as it causes bloat. I would have his tum scanned this is not expensive cost me £60.00 bloods for pancreatitis, to give you a starting point to go from, rule out tumours etc as they are more predisposed to stomach cancer when they have these conditions.

The metrodizonale anti b if you read about it it very good for the short term for this condition it is an anti b for the gut, but also has anti inflammatory properties to.

Stress definately effects my boys guts, but the sounds yes are dreadful I can hear them from one room to another, I walk him a lot to which is all good for his guts. I appreciate he is very lucky as he has had me at his beck and call with this condition.

Don't let them have any tit bits, even dog ones. No raw hides, just a plastic chewy thing.

I do know you must get your raw feeding correct as my daughter is a vet in New Zealand and a lot of the dogs are fed raw, as in a leg thrown at them whenever none of the offal bits etc, and they have a lot of cases of whatever the term is for dogs with rickets and a lot of other conditions as they are lacking so much in there diet. But how raw is done here is absolutely fine.

It is very stressful when our animals are unwell.
 
Hi Witchity Bug,

I can relate to your dog’s gut problems. One of my dogs had severe problems; bloating, vomiting and diarrhoea with a red jelly type substance in both. I thought it was blood. It turned out to be his stomach lining. All my dogs food issues are solved after years of research.

My vet put him on a cooked chicken diet, then tried to get him on manufactured foods. He seemed ok, a bit bloated, but then the grumbly gut problems came back. I hit the books…

There is a lot of conflicting information and lots of opinions. It didn’t make life easy. I stumbled on a zoologist led pet food company. They were very knowledgeable and sent me in the right direction.

Here’s the basis of a perfect raw/natural dogs diet. Before I tell you, I should state I have four dogs and each of their diets are slightly different, and based on their needs and previous illnesses.

Chicken meat – Easy to digest. The main purpose of flesh meat is to provide protein and fat. I feed my dogs quite a lot of chicken and base the quantity on their natural size and activity level. I don’t give two of my dogs large amounts of red meat because it is difficult to digest compared to poultry.

Organ meat – They eat quite a lot of liver, kidney and heart, and any other available organ meat. People get confused about organ meat. I’ve seen recommendations of only giving 5% and all sorts of unproven reasons why.

The truth is wild Dogs and Wolves prefer organ meat before anything else because they are the most nutritious parts. I enjoy talking to people about dogs being carnivorous or omnivore… some will claim a dog are an omnivore and then go on to cite dogs eating innards first. Biologically dogs are known as opportunistic carnivores… animals first and anything else to survive.

People say they eat the content of the stomach and intestines, so that means they are omnivores. Yeah, they eat poo as well, what does that tell you? Biological documentation says they will discard the stomach and intestines of large pray and eat that of smaller pray. To me, it seems the stomach and intestines are getting in the way of the goodness…. so they eat it or chuck it.

Bone – Bone can be difficult for them to digest but it is essential. It provides minerals in the correct ratio, and fat goodness. One of my dogs is like a dustbin, you can feed him anything and it will either digest or come out the other end, while another one cannot tolerate too much bone. It makes her belly grumble, causes her to eat grass and sick it up. I found cooked bone to be increasingly difficult for them to digest and in some cases indigestible. I’ve seen clumps of pre ground and cooked bone in dog muck after a bout of intestinal noises.

A general fuzzy rule to feed a healthy dog raw bone is at the ratio of one whole chicken plus organ meat. For you that’s not a good idea. Stick with what you are giving your girl and introduce cooked chicken, and then some cooked offal. Whomever you spoke to at those companies were correct, you should do this slowly and periodically reduce the cooking time. Once you have successfully got her eating this, introduce some bone.

But there is a problem… you’ll need to increase the bones digestibility. Dogs can generally eat raw bone, but will do so in large mouthfuls. This increases the digestion difficulty. I bought a large manual mincer to grind up the bone. Then got an electric mincer and now put everything through it. It makes life easier to premix their foods, put in containers and refrigerate or freeze.

If you don’t want to do that, I understand, it is time consuming and a hassle. You could buy a container of poultry with bone from one of the companies you mentioned; I’m sure they market a meat with bone meal, marked as working food. Add a little of this to one meal and see how she reacts.

Eggs – Somewhat problematic for some dogs. My dogs are fine eating raw eggs. I’ve seen raw dog foodies suggest eggs are bad and given reasons why but without proof. I’ve searched journal for evidence that eggs, raw or cooked are bad for a dog in general, but yet to find anything. Some dogs do react to eggs. It is easier to know if eggs are a problem for healthy dogs… give them eggs for a few days and see what happens. As your girl is sick and has been on and off for some time it is difficult to say. Has she been healthy at some point and eaten eggs during that time; what was the outcome?

I don’t give my dogs eggshells and have never research the chemical structure and compounds of eggshells. I have heard they are good and would not disagree, although I can’t understand why you would need to cook eggshells or what cooking would do to the structure of the minerals. It would seem you’ve been recommended eggshells because of the mineral content, notably calcium. It is something, along with the bone, you can introduce in small quantities after you’ve successfully introduced meat and offal.

One of my dogs is a fussy eater. Getting him to change food was difficult. He was reluctant to eat offal, I don’t think he liked the texture, and fish was a no go. I finally got him to eat both with a bit of improvisation… I minced them up and covered with homemade meat stock. Now he dances on his hind legs and squeaks at meal times.

Meat Stock – A good stock adds flavour and energy. Dogs are opportunistic carnivores and spend most of their existence in ketosis; they use ketones derived from fat as energy as well as creating small stable quantities of glucose without consuming carbohydrates. Animal fats are transportation for fat soluble vitamins and not a problem for dogs to digest. I use stock to provide enough energy for my more energetic dogs. Generally speaking, the average dog shouldn’t need fat added to the mix and there is a huge difference between normal animal fat and organic animal fat. But I’m recommending you feed chicken and not red meat to begin with and that would therefore be a low fat diet and not good for nutrient. Consider adding dripping from your pork chop, beef or lamb to their meal.

You could give them small amounts of non-toxic carbohydrates if you think they need more energy. By non-toxic I mean carbohydrates that do not have substances their bodies need to deal with, increasing things for their organs to do, and free from toxins that damage their gut wall.

You could use mashed skinless boiled potatoes; they must be boiled in water to remove toxins. Or you could use small amounts of white rice; paella/pudding rice or jasmine rice are best. Make sure the rice or potato is fully cooked, soft and mashed to increase digestibility. Otherwise you may be picking it up later because dogs do not produce a lot of amylase to digest carbohydrates. We have to aid digestion if we want to add it to their food.

Pet food companies add amylase to their food to increase availability of the large quantities of carbohydrates they choose to use. The thing to know is dogs cannot naturally digest moderate quantities of carbohydrates, and who knows how much amylase is added to pet food products.

Typically they become amylase deficient which causes inflammation, usually of the skin (redness) and lungs (breathing problems). We humans on the other hand are very good at digesting carbs. We naturally produce large amounts of amylase.

Yoghurt – I give my dogs yoghurt, but I make it myself. The reason is I want it to be lactose free. Dogs do not keep the ability to digest lactose in adulthood. Feeding a dog dairy is generally not a good idea unless the lactose is removed. I make yoghurt from full fat milk and live cultures. Normally yoghurt is ready to be refrigerated in 8 to 16 hours; I leave it for up to 24 hours to make sure the good bacteria have devoured all the sugar (lactose). It tastes sour.

I sometimes give them Gruyere or extra mature Cheddar as a treat because the lactose is minimal or non-existent.

Oily fish – I used to give them salmon and sardines once or twice a week, but now I give them salmon oil because one of my dogs had an accident and broke his leg. The specialist wanted to remove the wrist type joint and pin it together. I spoke to many, many vets and specialists about it; the general consensus was to do the operation. I wasn’t convinced. His leg was healing well. If I did the op he would be hobbling around for the rest of his life. He has an elegant walk and not very old, so I derived a food mix to aid the joint and keep him running. It’s been over a year and he runs like he has never had a problem. Salomon oil plays a big part. It is highly anti-inflammatory because of the omega-3. I know at some point he may need the operation, but I’ll do all I can to prevent it through exercise and his food.

That is about all I give them. I don’t give them any fruit or vegetables. I haven’t found any proof of benefits. Every known need is provided by animal products and in the required state. For example, vitamin A. You could provide vitamin A from vegetables or animal products but it is not the same. Vegetable vitamin A is beta-carotene and the actual vitamin A needed by the body is retinol found in animal products, namely liver. The body needs to convert beta-carotene into retinol but does so in very small quantities. We humans are poor at doing this and we have had a millennia practicing. Dogs are useless at it. I fully understand if you desire giving them fruit and veg because it might benefit them in some way.

I’ve got great results from feeding my dogs a natural diet, like many others a softer glossier coat, brighter and younger looking, better behaved, and lean.

I hope this helps you understand natural dog food better and you can make an informed decision.

Dogs and food is my obsession. If you want to know what is easy and healthy for you and how to eat more than you can stomach while losing weight, check out this video.
[video=youtube_share;UWGuwba1utw]http://youtu.be/UWGuwba1utw[/video]
 
Wow, thanks everyone for taking so much time to reply to me! Much appreciated!

By the way, the vet said that the excessive weeing is due to the steroids. You'd have thought they might have told me that they might have this effect considering how worried I've been!

Will digest all the info (oops, no pun intended!) and hopefully I'll get it right. Thanks again everybody for all your advice!
 
You're welcome Witchity Bug,

It didn't take me very long to write, it just flowed... a bit too much. I didn't know I only had 10,000 characters, I nearly doubled that. It probably took longer to edit and condense to still have all relevant info for you.

Let us know how your dogs get on.
 
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