Sycamore Trees and Poisoning

[PeterNatt]

Sycamore Seeds, Saplings and the Foilage of Sycamore Trees can be poisonous to horses.
Last year proved to be a very dry year in the U.K. causing Sycamore Trees to produce a greater number of seeds (the trees produce more seeds as the tree feels under threat from the dry conditions) and also the seeds they produced contained a greater concentration of toxins due to the draught conditions causing the seeds to be very much more poisonous this year.
Therefore this year there are far more saplings.
Apart from literally pulling the young saplings up and carefully disposing of them (i.e burning them) which could prove very difficult are there any chemicals that will safely kill the small saplings to prevent them from growing?
What other solutions are there to this potential problem?

 

[Polos Mum]

There seems to be a line of thought that even once dead the saplings / small plants are toxic (like dead ragwort) so they would still need to be collected / or field avoided until they have fully rotted away.

There is some concern about this years hay as dried in hay they are apparently still toxic.

If possible avoid grazing effected fields would be lowest effort approach - clearly that only works if you have a choice.

I'd be fascinated to see among the H&H network how many people have first hand experience of illness in a horse with this as the cause this year. It's causing utmost panic but I'm struggling to find any actual statistics on illness in real life.

 

[Tarragon]

The only personal anecdote that I have is that I asked my vet recently, and she said that in the previous 6 years she has been practising there hadn't been any cases, but they had a handful of cases last autumn, so eating the seeds rather than the seedlings.

 

[Kaylum]

Friends horse died from mature seeds in hay. They can blow for 10 miles.

 

[Sossigpoker]

The only personal anecdote that I have is that I asked my vet recently, and she said that in the previous 6 years she has been practising there hadn't been any cases, but they had a handful of cases last autumn, so eating the seeds rather than the seedlings.

I wonder if sycamore poisoning isn't more prevalent now , but previously it's been put down to colic or grass sickness ?

 

[PeterNatt]

If the seedlings or seeds are poisonous then this could prove to be of concern when buying in hay and ensuring that it does not contain any.

 

[GreyDot]

...

I'd be fascinated to see among the H&H network how many people have first hand experience of illness in a horse with this as the cause this year. It's causing utmost panic but I'm struggling to find any actual statistics on illness in real life.

I would like also see some stats of where in the country, what time of year, age of horse, type of turnout (24/7, poor grazing, etc.) and survival rates.

 

[Tarragon]

I would like also see some stats of where in the country, what time of year, age of horse, type of turnout (24/7, poor grazing, etc.) and survival rates.

Me too! I think we need to be better informed. Not all sycamore seeds or seedlings are poisonous and not all horses are susceptible to the poison.

 

[stangs]

I'd be fascinated to see among the H&H network how many people have first hand experience of illness in a horse with this as the cause this year. It's causing utmost panic but I'm struggling to find any actual statistics on illness in real life.

Agreed. I don't remember any sycamore panic in 2007, after the 2006 drought?

 

[Polos Mum]

If facebook is to be believed (clearly a BIG IF) then horses are being confined to stables for weeks and 100 year old trees are being felled
Not to mention the stress on owners and fights between YO / horse owners over responsibility and time being spent picking up seedlings and hoovering up seeds.

We're in a really horsey area - 3 big (50+ yards) livery yards within 10 mins of here + tonnes of smaller ones.

Talking to physio and farrier - nobody knows anyone with any first hand / or second hand experience of this as a problem - just facebook blind panic.

I'm sure there have been an handful of nasty instances - but there are a handful of deaths on the road each year and we still all largely hack on the road

 

[ImmyS]

It’s an interesting one. We have three sycamores next to our fields. We normally are very lucky and only get the very odd sapling on the grazing. This spring however we had a carpet of them under the trees and in a the horses paddocks due to the weather last year.

Obviously concerned I put my boy in the furthest field with no saplings and scanned the paddock daily. Another livery put her two young colts on an area covered in saplings. The small paddock has now been scalped and ponies are well?! So I can only assume either the trees and saplings aren’t toxic, she has been very lucky, or the risk isn’t as high as we are lead to believe?

 

[skint1]

I lost my horse to AM in April 2015, no one was worried about sycamore seedlings, I think it was raised a couple of times on our yard FB group but we all thought it was the seeds that were the issue, not the seedlings (that was back then) My horse died horribly, she was euthenised obivously but because she deteriorated so very quickly she did suffer, years later I can't get the pictures out of my head I was told that she was the only one ever on that yard, and she was older and had other health issues (she had arthritis and COPD) so perhaps she was susceptible and others aren't, but no one knows.
If people think it's just a blind panic with no basis, I hope for the sake of their horses they are right. Personally, I couldn't take that risk. If I ever had to go back in the field which killed my horse and still has sycamores in it each year, I would lose sleep picking them, I couldn't just leave it and hope I was lucky because guess what, I wasn't, and my horse paid the price. If people are happy to do that, that's up to them, stay lucky I guess.

 

[Gallop_Away]

We seem to have a glut of seedlings this year. We don't have any sycamores near our spring paddocks but yet they appear to be infested with the little b@stards. Hubby and I spent and hour clearing them the other day.
I feel like that's all I've read about this year is sycamore poisoning. My nerves are shot.
We can't move the horses as we are on a livery yard. Also confining them to stables doesn't seem right either. Honestly driving me mad with worry but no one else on the yard appears concerned.

 

[maya2008]

We seem to have a glut of seedlings this year. We don't have any sycamores near our spring paddocks but yet they appear to be infested with the little b@stards. Hubby and I spent and hour clearing them the other day.
I feel like that's all I've read about this year is sycamore poisoning. My nerves are shot.
We can't move the horses as we are on a livery yard. Also confining them to stables doesn't seem right either. Honestly driving me mad with worry but no one else on the yard appears concerned.

Look in the hedge. We found one that had been hiding - obviously had taken after a previous mast year and had not been tall enough to produce seedlings before last year. So we have a patch from the ‘wind tunnel’ past the houses and across the road, and a patch from an immature hidden one. I only found it because I was tracking the seedlings, found a load by the hedge and looked up!

 

[maya2008]

It’s an interesting one. We have three sycamores next to our fields. We normally are very lucky and only get the very odd sapling on the grazing. This spring however we had a carpet of them under the trees and in a the horses paddocks due to the weather last year.

Obviously concerned I put my boy in the furthest field with no saplings and scanned the paddock daily. Another livery put her two young colts on an area covered in saplings. The small paddock has now been scalped and ponies are well?! So I can only assume either the trees and saplings aren’t toxic, she has been very lucky, or the risk isn’t as high as we are lead to believe?

Three ponies in a paddock which doesn’t normally get them - they sprang up overnight. One pony died, in the prime of his life, perfect health. Two others were fine. Vets said - they have to choose to eat them AND be susceptible to the toxin.

 

[ImmyS]

Three ponies in a paddock which doesn’t normally get them - they sprang up overnight. One pony died, in the prime of his life, perfect health. Two others were fine. Vets said - they have to choose to eat them AND be susceptible to the toxin.

It is awful isn’t it? I did highlight the issue to the livery, but can only advise I suppose. There are no saplings left in the paddock and it has been grazed right down so can only assume they have been eaten

 

[ycbm]

I'm really torn on this one. I can see the risk but I know so many places around Cheshire that have sycamore all around their grazing, a friend has a complete shelter belt of it on her land. And I've never heard of a single case of AM at any of the places where those trees are. Maybe Chesire doesn't have much hypoglycin A infection yet, or maybe it's not actually an enormous risk.

It must be devastating if it's your horse, and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost one, but I'd really like to see some quantification of the risk because finding livery without sycamore somewhere near it isn't always that simple.

 

[TheMule]

Don’t forget that a huge number of people incorrectly identify field maples as sycamore. Lots of poor trees being needlessly felled

 

[maya2008]

I'm really torn on this one. I can see the risk but I know so many places around Cheshire that have sycamore all around their grazing, a friend has a complete shelter belt of it on her land. And I've never heard of a single case of AM at any of the places where those trees are. Maybe Chesire doesn't have much hypoglycin A infection yet, or maybe it's not actually an enormous risk.

It must be devastating if it's your horse, and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost one, but I'd really like to see some quantification of the risk because finding livery without sycamore somewhere near it isn't always that simple.

I would imagine, if there is sycamore everywhere, that the susceptible ones die young, so never make it to adulthood. Our vets were surprised to see an adult horse - they said it's usually youngsters. Our pony had never met a sycamore seedling before, so this was his first chance to eat some.

 

[marmalade76]

Think I read somewhere, and can't remember if it was about sycamore or not, that these things tend to be more toxic to horses on short rations (or maybe they're more likely to eat them if they're on short rations). I'm sure I read that acorn poisoning can be diluted by more feed (I did read up on this because we have 3 mature oaks in one field).

 

[Flame_]

I'm really torn on this one. I can see the risk but I know so many places around Cheshire that have sycamore all around their grazing, a friend has a complete shelter belt of it on her land. And I've never heard of a single case of AM at any of the places where those trees are. Maybe Cheshire doesn't have much hypoglycin A infection yet, or maybe it's not actually an enormous risk.

It must be devastating if it's your horse, and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost one, but I'd really like to see some quantification of the risk because finding livery without sycamore somewhere near it isn't always that simple.

A group of us liveries moved with a YM from one yard in Cheshire to another. The field mine and my friend's horses went into had a massive old sycamore in the middle of it. Her horse died the year after of "grass sickness" IIRC. I didn't know anything about sycamore at the time, I don't think, but it did give me a push to move yards (along with other reasons). I also remember hearing they lost another horse and stopped using that paddock.

I have a sycamore again now and I do try and pick up the seedlings but don't know how much of an impact I really make. I weigh it up against all the positives about the place and the lives the horses have, given the local options, and have arrived at, if they die so be it.

 

[Polos Mum]

We can't keep your horses 100% without risk. Everything we do with them is risk assessed - even if we don't know we are actively doing it.

BHS stats say 68 horses were killed on the roads in the UK in 2022 and 125 injured. That's nasty and horrific for everyone involved.
But at that level I will still ride on the roads and take my chances (reducing risk where I can with high viz, worse stretches of road on Sundays etc.)


I think if 50+ horses had been killed by sycamore in the last 12 months we would have more people here and on FB with direct experience of this trajedy.

 

[maya2008]

We can't keep your horses 100% without risk. Everything we do with them is risk assessed - even if we don't know we are actively doing it.

BHS stats say 68 horses were killed on the roads in the UK in 2022 and 125 injured. That's nasty and horrific for everyone involved.
But at that level I will still ride on the roads and take my chances (reducing risk where I can with high viz, worse stretches of road on Sundays etc.)


I think if 50+ horses had been killed by sycamore in the last 12 months we would have more people here and on FB with direct experience of this trajedy.

Our local vet hospital said they have had cases in double digits this year so far. Last year there was nothing. Last few years very few. Horses who had been getting away with eating them, suddenly couldn’t as the toxicity is so high this year. We are not the only case at our vet practice either.

It is so hard - if you know your horse is fine, even in a year like this, then likely it will always be so. Yet if you buy a new one, it could not have been exposed before. So you could be riding it one night and it could be dead 24 hours later.

 

[Sossigpoker]

We can't keep your horses 100% without risk. Everything we do with them is risk assessed - even if we don't know we are actively doing it.

BHS stats say 68 horses were killed on the roads in the UK in 2022 and 125 injured. That's nasty and horrific for everyone involved.
But at that level I will still ride on the roads and take my chances (reducing risk where I can with high viz, worse stretches of road on Sundays etc.)


I think if 50+ horses had been killed by sycamore in the last 12 months we would have more people here and on FB with direct experience of this trajedy.

A friend of mine does transport and in one week took 7 horses to hospital with AM. only 2 survived. That's in one week and from one area within one county.
It's a big risk to horses and people still being blasé about it is incredibly dangerous.
In previous years these deaths have probably been put down to grass sickness.

 

[Polos Mum]

A friend of mine does transport and in one week took 7 horses to hospital with AM. only 2 survived. That's in one week and from one area within one county.
It's a big risk to horses and people still being blasé about it is incredibly dangerous.
In previous years these deaths have probably been put down to grass sickness.

If it's really that bad with 10,000's of deaths nationally then hopefully the BHS or similar will be able to gather some data very quickly and share it so we can all make better informed choices.

If 5 deaths a week vis one local transporter is the case and that is representative, then horse care will have to change dramatically in the UK to accommodate this some how.

 

[Mudfukkle]

Don’t forget that a huge number of people incorrectly identify field maples as sycamore. Lots of poor trees being needlessly felled

I found this image, hope it helps? The leaf on the left is Sycamore, Ash in the middle and Field Maple on the right.

 

[Sossigpoker]

View attachment 113369View attachment 113369

I found this image, hope it helps? The leaf on the left is Sycamore, Ash in the middle and Field Maple on the right.

The leaves are so different that there's really no excuse for not being able to tell them apart

 

[Sossigpoker]

If it's really that bad with 10,000's of deaths nationally then hopefully the BHS or similar will be able to gather some data very quickly and share it so we can all make better informed choices.

If 5 deaths a week vis one local transporter is the case and that is representative, then horse care will have to change dramatically in the UK to accommodate this some how.

As far as I know , no one is gathering these statistics and it's only due to social media that people are more aware and talk about it more.
They don't take it seriously at my yard either because "it's never been a problem before " but at least they're OK with me refusing to put my horse in a paddock with huge sycamores around it.

I guess the reason for people burying their head in the sand is that removing the trees or moving houses would be a hassle and cost a lot of money so they'd rather gamble on the horses' lives.

About 10 years ago two adult horses and a foal all died in a paddock with a sycamore on the edge. The tree is still there and horses are still grazed there. Looks like nothing has been done and the owner just hopes it won't happen again.

 

[AnShanDan]

I've got 2 trees in one of my field margins and I always thought they were sycamores, they are Norway Maples. It's worth really checking.

 

[Identityincrisis]

My friend on the next door livery yard had a mare die a couple of months ago of AM, the horse was 5years old. They have a massive sycamore tree in the middle of their field, i was on that yard for 20 years and there was no AM or similar in all that time. I do think that it is being blown out of proportion, but we as a livery yard have been picking this year but mainly because the grass is so poor, i was worried they would eat more by accident.